1. HENRY WILLIAM BULL proceedingsdefend , FREDERICK BULL proceedingsdefend , SAMUEL GEORGE proceedingsdefend , and JOHN GOMM proceedingsdefend were indicted for stealing, on the 21st of October , from the person of Henry Joll proceedingsvictim , one bill of exchange for payment of and value 100 l. , his property.

Counsel for the prosecution, MR. BARRY.

HENRY JOLL < no role > . I am a carpenter and builder , and live at No. 11, Dunstan's-place, Ratcliff. I had a bill of exchange, drawn by John Crawley < no role > for 100 l. on and accepted by Henry William Bull < no role > , who, I believe, is a partner with the other prisoner, Frederick Bull < no role > , at No. 21, Holles-street, Cavendish-square. On the 21st of October, between four and five o'clock in the afternoon, I went there by myself - I first saw the prisoner, John Gomm < no role > ; he said he was clerk to Mr. Bull , and asked my business? I asked him if he was managing clerk? he said he could do the business I required. I had the bill in my hand, and asked him if that was the acceptance of Mr. Bull? he said he believed it was, but that Mr. Bull was at his mother's, and if I could wait a few minutes he would call him. I went into the back office, with the bill in my possession, and he went out. When Mr. Henry William Bull < no role > (on whom the bill was drawn) arrived, he walked into the front office; I followed him, he asked my business? I told him I came to ask him, by desire of the persons I was going to pay this bill to, if it was his acceptance? I had the bill in my hand, and told him the persons wished me to ask whether it was his acceptance, as the drawer was then a prisoner in the Fleet. I held it open before him, for him to see if it was his hand-writing - nobody else was in that office. He desired me to turn it to look at the endorsement, which I did. He asked me to turn it again, I did so, and while I was holding it, he made a snatch at it, took it from me, and immediately ran into the clerk's office, I followed him as quick as possible. He took a sheet of paper, as if to copy the bill, but did not do it. He then ran or walked very fast into the front office, I followed him - he desired John Gomm < no role > to go for his brother Frederick, who came in less than a minute - at this time Henry Bull < no role > went again into the clerk's office, which is the back office, I followed him; Frederick Bull < no role > then got between me and him. Henry Bull < no role > delivered the bill into Frederick's hands, who very quickly folded it up in his hand. I immediately took Frederick round the waist, and endeavoured to get it from him, when I was attacked by Henry Bull < no role > , the acceptor. A scuffle ensued - then their two clerks, Gomm and George, joined them in holding me fast. Frederick Bull < no role > broke from my grasp with the bill, and immediately put it into the fire. I struggled hard to get to the fire to rescue it, but the other three held me, while Frederick Bull < no role > took up the tongs and struck at me with them to prevent my getting at the fire. The bill was quite consumed, he put a cinder over it - I then indicted them.

Cross-examined by MR. ALLEY. Q. Do you mean to say you carry on business as a builder now - A. When I have business in hand - I built last Summer. I live in the hamlet of Ratcliff. Crawley is now dead.

Q. Had he taken the benefit of the Insolvent Act before you got the bill from him - A. I do not know.

Q. Was he in prison before that - A. I do not know; I never saw him five times in my life - I did not know he was a prisoner, I knew he was an uncertificated bankrupt.

Q. Were you to take the bill by way of discount, or for goods - A. I had discounted it.

Q. Before you went to inquire if the acceptance was genuine - A. No; I had been to Marsh's, the banker, in Berner-street, where it was made payable, to inquire - they said Mr. Henry Bull < no role > had an account open there.

COURT. Q. You inquired if it was their acceptance - A. No; I did not shew them the bill, it was not then in my possession. When I called I did not know whether the signature was genuine or not - this was on the 3d of September.

MR. ALLEY. Q. Were you building at that time - A. I was not, but I was under engagements to build.

Q. Are you a housekeeper - A. No, I lodge with my father-in-law, who belongs to the Excise - I keep no banker. I gave 71 l. in cash and some odd shillings for the bill, and a promissory note on Frederick Thomas < no role > for the balance; Frederick Thomas < no role > was present when I paid the money, he is my brother-in-law. I gave the money to Crawley.

Q. At the time notice of trial was served on you, did you lodge where you say you do - A. I was out of town last September; I was served with a notice the other day,I then lodged at the same place. Henry Bull < no role > served me with the notice.

Q. When he brought you the notice, did you not refuse to take it, and say you would not receive any notice of trial - A. No.

Q. On your oath, did you not turn him out of the room, and refuse to receive any notice, and he was obliged to put it under the door - A. No, I did not turn him out - he put it under the door.

Q. Had he not been in the room - A. Yes, and said he came to serve me with notice of trial.

COURT. Q. Then he was put out - A. No, my Lord, he went down to call a person up, and I shut the door upon him. The notice was at last put under the door.

MR. ALLEY. Q. With an order stating that it was served by order of the King's Bench - A. No, there was no order. The prisoners have surrendered to-day.

Q. Do you not know they have sought after you before the last Session, to serve you with notice of trial - A. I heard so.

Q. Do you not know they endeavoured to find you out, to serve you with notice of trial last Session - A. I have since heard they did, but I understood they could not give me notice last Session, and I knew Crawley was ill and could not come, and I did not want to trouble them to take them into custody.

Q. Did you not go with an officer to the house - A. I did, as they told my attorney a falsehood, that they had surrendered. I went before a Magistrate.

Q. Were the prisoners summoned before the Magistrate to answer your complaint - A. No, I applied to Mr. Birnie, he told me to apply at Marlborough-street, which I did, and was told the Grand Jury would soon sit, and it would be a pity to trouble them before.

Q. Have you ever taken the benefit of the Insolvent Act yourself - A. I have, between two and three years ago - it is two years and two or three months ago.

COURT. Q. What did you pay - A. I do not know.

Q. Have you paid any thing - A. I do not know; I had nothing to give up. This 71 l. was my own money.

Q. Why not pay your creditors - A. It was lent me by my father; I considered it as mine when he lent it me.

MR. ALLEY. Q. Did not these gentlemen tell you they had been swindled out of this bill and 2000 l. by Crawley, and from your manner they considered you as a coadjutor, and would not give it up, but would give you a copy - A. They did not; they said the bill was got from their hands by some unfair way.

Q. On your oath, did not one of the defendants offer you a copy of the bill - A. No, neither of them, nor any thing like it.

Q. You said one of them took a paper in his hand; was it not to make a copy of the bill - A. He appeared as if he was about to copy it.

Q. That there may be no misunderstanding, were you not told you should have a copy of the bill at that time - A. I was not.

Q. Were you not told that if you had advanced any money on the bill, it should be paid you - A. I was not, moreover, I desired Mr. Thomas to call upon Bull next day, which he did.

Q. Which of the clerks did you first see - A. John Gomm< no role > ; the other clerk assisted in holding me after the bill was taken. The clerks did nothing till after the bill was taken - no other person was present whatever.

Q. Then you included them all in the indictment, that they might have no witnesses - No answer.

Q. When you went with the bill, did you not refuse to give your name - A. I did not.

Q. Did you not say that you had the bill from Mr. Joll, instead of saying that you was Joll yourself - A. No, I did not; they asked who Joll was.

Q. How came they to ask you who he was - A. I never heard them say so - I I did not say I was Joll at first.

Q. How came they to ask - A. They know best - I had not mentioned the name to them before. They asked where Joll lived? I said in the Hamlet of Ratcliffe.

Q. Did you not say Joll was the person from whom you had it - A. I did not.

Q. Pray have you ever paid a single sixpence to your creditors since you was discharged - A. Yes.

Q. For debts due antecedant to your taking the benefit of the Act - A. I allow some in the way of business. I have done work for part of the old debts.

Q. I see by your schedule, that you gave 300 l. as the amount of debts against you, and state that you had 8 l. 15 s., the greatest part of which was spent in prison - A. You can tell better than I can. My father was a creditor for rent.

Q. Who did you have the 71 l. from - A. From my father - I have been a builder several years, both at Plymouth and London.

Q. You style yourself a ship-carpenter, joiner, and undertaker - A. I am so.

Q. You did not then describe yourself as a builder - A. I did not then - I built houses then. A carpenter is a builder.

Q. Before I sit down I will repeat my question. On the solemn oath you have taken, did not one or either of the defendants tell you that you should have a copy of the bill - A. They did not in any way whatever.

Q. Were you not told that if you had advanced money on it, the sum you advanced should be given to you - A. I was not.

Q. Do you recollect going afterwards to arrest these gentlemen - A. To take them into custody.

Q. Did you not then say to them, that if they would give you a sum of money, you would not prosecute them - A. I did not, but Frederick Bull < no role > offered me 120 l. not to proceed.

Q. That you swear - A. I do.

MR. BARRY. Q. I find by your schedule that the amount of your debts were 270 l. - A. Yes, and debts due to me near 80 l.

Q. You desired Mr. Thomas, your attorney, to call on the prisoners next day - A. I did.

MR. ALLEY. Q. Have you received the County sixpences - A. I have, it is sixpence per day. That was not from my creditors.

COURT. Q. Crawley was in the Fleet - A. Yes, my Lord. I was not in the Fleet - I was in the Marshalsea. I had endorsed the bill before I took it to Bulls', which was on the 21st of October.

Q. How came you not to try the case last Session - A. On account of the illness of Crawley, as I thought he would be a material witness; he was not at Bulls'.

Q. Do you know what day you went before the Grand Jury - A. On the Friday-week following. The 21st was Thursday.

Q. Then you went before the Grand Jury in November, quite at the end of the Session - A. Quite at the end of the Session. I went out of town on the Tuesday morning following.

Q. Before you went out of town, had you heard that the prisoners were desirous of having this tried - A. I had not.

Q. Did the clerks know Frederick Bull had got the bill before they interfered - A. They saw the transaction - they did not see him take the bill, because they were in the other office.

Q. Did they know he had got it - A. They must have seen it. I and Frederick were struggling - Henry assisted him; he laid hold of me a few minutes before George and Gomm did. It was a very few minutes altogether.

Q. Now I ask you again, had either George or Gomm an opportunity of seeing the bill after you came into the back office - A. They certainly had an opportunity, but whether they saw it or not, I cannot say. I lived in Dunstan's-place at the time.

Q. Had you no jobs in hand then - A. I had not. I had had very little to do for two months before. I have a wife and child, whom I was maintaining at that time.

Q. When were you last at work - A. In Lucas-street, building two houses; I continued building them up to within about four months of this time. I built them for Mr. Vince. I was paid for them at different times, a considerable time before the 21st of of October.

FREDERICK THOMAS < no role > . I am an attorney, and live at No. 11, Dunstan'-place, Ratcliff, and am brother-in-law to the prosecutor.

Q. Do you know what consideration was given by him for the bill of 100 l. - A. Yes, there was 71 l. and a few shillings paid in cash to Crawley, also his own note of hand for 25 l.

Q. Did you at any time call upon the prisoners at the instance of the prosecutor - A. I did on the 22d of October. I met Henry Bull < no role > at the door, and enquired for Mr. Bull, not knowing him; he returned through the passage, and went into the front room, where Frederick Bull < no role > was sitting. I told Mr. Henry Bull < no role > , in Frederick's presence that I waited on him from Mr. Henry Joll < no role > respecting a 100 l. acceptance of his, which he had detained from Mr. Joll last night. He hesitated, and then said,

"We should not have done so, had we known the source from whence Mr. Joll obtained it" - or the means by which he obtained it, I do not know which. I then wished to gain from them an admission of the violence that had been used, but he evaded every question I put to him, and said,

"I shall neither admit or deny any thing."

Q. Did you tell them your profession - A. Yes. As I was going out, Mr. Henry Bull < no role > was also going out, he made use of the expression of the polluted source from whence the bill was obtained. He said that it came from a polluted source, and that Mr. Joll must have known that it came from a polluted source - from the jaws of the Fleet Prison. I told him he must trace the pollution back to himself, as it was him that gave credit to the bill by his signature - he made no reply.

Cross-examined by MR. WALFORD. Q. When was the 71 l. advanced to Crawley - A. On the 2d or 3d of September, in my office - Crawley was present.

Q. How came he there? He was a prisoner in the Fleet at that time, was he not - A. No, I knew him; I knew he was an uncertificated bankrupt. I did not know him to be in goal at that time.

Q. Where had you seen him before the money was advanced - A. At my office on business; he was a defendant in several actions - he was a client of mine. The bill was drawn by him, and made payable to his order.

Q. I take it for granted that you would know his handwriting - A. No, I never saw him write. I never saw his signature.

Q. How long after this money was advanced, was Crawley arrested, and taken to prison - A. About ten days after. I introduced him to Joll.

Q. Joll being your brother-in-law, you knew perfectly well at all times where he lived - A. He was frequently out of the way because his circumstances were embarrased.

Q. Was he embarrased in October, at the time this bill was found - A. He was in August and September, but not in October - he was not out of the way, to avoid his creditors, when this indictment was preferred. I knew mostly where to find him.

Q. Do you remember inquiry being made after him for the purpose of serving him with notice of trial in October - A. I do. I did not know where he was then. When he was at home he lived where I do. He did not come home sometimes for a week.

Q. Did he go to Chatham about that time - A. I believe he did; he told me he was going to purchase some bricks; it was the morning of the day Mr. Harmer's clerk called on me. I told him he might safely go, as I intended to move the Court to put the trial off on account of Crawley's illness. I did not know what part of Chatham he was gone to.

Q. Did you tell Mr. Harmer's clerk he was gone to Chatham - A. I told him he was gone into Kent, and mentioned several places. Chatham was one that I mentioned.

Q. That you swear - A. I do.

Q. These gentlemen attended last Session to surrender and take their trials - A. They did; I believe the Session lasted a week after that. I received notice on Tuesday that they would surrender on Thursday, and on Wednesday I received a notice very late, saying they would attend that evening.

Q. What day of the week did you apply to put off the trial - A. I made no application.

COURT. Q. Did you tell Mr. Harmer's clerk that you meant to apply to put it off - A. No.

Q. When you went to Mr. Henry Bull < no role > , did he not admit that he took the note from Joll - A. He certainly did not deny it, but there was hesitation; he said he should not have done so. -

Q. He admitted having taken it - A. Certainly he did; he did not deny the acceptance being his.

Q. You saw the 71 l. advanced, what did Crawley do with it - A. He took it away.

Q. I suppose it did not occur to you that the endorsement of an uncertificated bankrupt was worth nothing - A. No, it did not.

Q. What interest was Joll to have for advancing the money - A. Crawley was a man of extensive connections, and I thought it would be in his power to do Joll good.

Q. How many actions had he against him - A. Four or five, I believe.

Q. You did not think it would be a better application of his money to pay his creditors - A. No.

WILLIAM UNDERWOOD < no role > . I am a woollen-draper, and live at the corner of Vere-street, in Oxford-street.

Q. Do you remember going to Messrs. Bulls' in October - A. Yes, in consequence of a note I received from Frederick Bull < no role > , I went and found him in great agitation. He introduced me to the prosecutor, who was there - it was towards the latter end of October. He said the prosecutor was the person who held a bill of Crawley's, and had brought some constables to take him into custody. He said,

"For God's sake lend me a check, will you?" for I had rather give 500 l. than be conveyed to Newgate - they are going to take me to Newgate." I said I should do no such thing, and asked him if he would compound felony with a set of villains?

Q. Who did you mean - A. Crawley in particular - I knew him to be an infamous character; I meant him and Joll - Mr. Joll seemed offended, and said,

"What do you mean?" I said I was sure the Grand Jury would not have found the bill if he had not perjured himself. Bull was still agitated, and said he would do any thing rather than be dragged to Newgate. I said,

"Nonsense! they can't drag you to Newgate." I then said to Joll,

"Pray, Mr. Joll, what consideration have you given for the bill? because you were told before, if you had given a fair consideration for the bill Mr. Bull would have paid you the amount." His answer was, that he had given the money for the bill, and all he wanted was his right. I said,

"Pray what is the amount you gave for the bill?" he said,

"71 l." I said,

"Did you pay it in Bank notes?" he said,

"Part in Bank notes, and part in other money." I said,

"What became of the 29 l. remaining?" he said that was for premium. I then said it was a strange business, and I was certain that rascal, Crawley, was at the bottom of it, and said,

"You have seen Crawley lately, have you not?" he rather hesitated, and said he had not seen him. I said,

"You have written to him" - he said, Yes, he had. I asked him what was the purport of the note? he said, to ask respecting Messrs. Bull, and he had received an answer that they were very respectable. During this time the passage door opened, the officer was inside; I called him, and said I wanted to see the warrant. He shuffled and said,

"I have got the warrant here, but I don't know who the prisoner is." I asked to see the warrant; he said something about arranging - he did not pull the warrant out. At last he produced a paper, which was signed D. Williams, of the Thames Police Office, to take the prisoners into custody. I said,

"Then, Bull, all you have got to do is to go to prison, and meet it like a man." His mother came in; he said,

"Mother, do pay the money for me!" she said he had been robbed enough by the whole gang, and would not. The officer said they must go before a Magistrate first. We were going to the Magistrate's, Bull went up to fetch something down - the officer stood at the door - Bull went out, and I did not see him again. The officer said,

"We shall find him." I said,

"Yes, you will find him - all you want is to extort money." They went away without taking him.

Cross-examined by MR. ADOLPHUS. Q. You stated to Joll, that at the time of taking the bill, Bull had offered to pay him what he advanced on it - A. Yes; he did not deny its having passed. The prisoners are my brothers-in-law, Crawley has made them a dupe. I have had dealings with Crawley at times.

NOT GUILTY .

It is but justice to the prisoners to state, that the learned Judge observed, that though they had acted imprudently in destroying the bill, they certainly were free from any criminal motive.

First Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Justice Bayly.