1098. ANDREW SAVAGE proceedingsdefend and BENJAMIN SAVAGE proceedingsdefend were indicted for feloniously disposing of and putting away divers false. forged notes, purporting to be the notes of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, for the payment of 1l. each, knowing the same to be forged, with intention to defraud the Governor and Company of the Bank of England proceedingsvictim .

JOHN CHARLES < no role > . I was taken up upon a charge of having forged notes in my possession, on the 17th of August. After that, I was employed by Mr. Westwood, the clerk to the Solicitor of the Bank of England, to detect the prisoners in selling forged notes. By his desire, I introduced a person to the prisoners. Before I introduced that person, I had dealings with the prisoners respecting forged bank notes several times. I obtained some from them at the price ten shillings and sixpence of the prisoner, and the old sixpence was allowed to them. I paid them ten shillings and sixpence for a one-pound to ged Bank of England note; I understood that they had the sixpence for themselves for their trouble. Between the time that I was apprehended and the time. I introduced a person by Mr. Westwood's desire, I dealt with them five times and get from the nineteen notes. I introduced Giffiths to them on the 29th of August, at the Crown and Cushion in London Wall , they were not there when we first went in, but they came to us; they came there by an appointment which they had made with me the say before. I had spoken of Giffithes before; that is, I had told them that I had a friend that would be glad it they would serve as well as myself. The prisoner Andrew Savage < no role > , asked me if that was the friend I spoke of; I told him, yes. He then asked me if I could he answerable for his conduct I asked him, did he think that I would bring him if I could not. He asked me how many I wanted; I told him I wanted four for myself, and two for my friend; then I gave him the money; I gave him two pounds two shillings myself, and I asked Richard Griffiths < no role > to give me his money, and he gave it to me, and I gave it to Andrew Savage < no role > ; I gave him the two pounds two shillings for my own four, and the one pound one shilling for Griffths' two. I took the money from Griffiths, and Griffiths said that will buy me two I don't doubt but that which Griffiths said to me, and I said to Griffiths, was loud enough for the prisoners to hear; we all sat together. When Andrew Savage had received the money, both prisoners went out together; they said, they should not be long; it was not exceeding three quarters of an hour before they returned; but how much less, I can't say.

Q. When they returned, did they bring any thing with them. and which of them - A. Yes, Andrew Savage < no role > gave me six forged one pound Bank of England notes. We came out of the public-house, and then we parted.

Q. What did you do with the notes you received - A. I put them into my right hand small clothes pocket; I delivered them to Mr. Westwood the next morning. I am most undoubtedly sure that the notes I delivered to Mr. Westwood were the same that I received from the prisoner Andrew Savage < no role > . I met the prisoners again on the 30th of August, at the Crown and Cushion, in London Wall; Griffiths was with me at that time, and two other persons were in company besides the Savages on that day. I agreed to purchase six for myself, and Griffiths agreed to purchase two for himself. I gave the money at the same rate as before.

Was any money-paid by any other persons at the same time - A. Yes, the other two also paid money for the purpose of buying forged notes. We paid the money to the prisoner Andrew Savage < no role > ; he counted it, and gave it to Benjamin, who took a white handkerchief out of his hat, and wrapped what I had given him, and what Griffiths had given him, and what the other two persons had given him, all in seperate parcels; he first put one in the middle of the handkerchief, then another, and wrapped them up in four separate rolls of the handkerchief; I think he kept it in his hand, and he carried it away with him; they went away together. I don't know particularly how long it was before they returned; but I know they were not an hour away.

Q. On that day did they bring any thing back with them - A. Nothing more than the money which I, Griffiths, and the other persons had given to them. Benjamin Savage < no role > said, there can be nothing done to night: we did not ask why; but we waited a little while longer, and drank together, and then came out; he returned the money to us all; as soon as we had been in the house a little together, Benjamin came out with me and Griffiths to the door, and told us if we wanted any more, to meet him on the next night at the Fountain in the Minories, between seven and eight; that would be the 31st of August.< no role > I communicated that to Mr. Westwood.

Q. Before you went to your appointment, did you meet any persons - A. Yes; I met with Griffiths, and was searched in the investigator's office in the Bank of England, by Mr. Foy, and his brother, in the presence of Mr.Christmas and Mr. Griffiths, and I was supplied with money for the purpose of purchasing notes to the amount of three pounds three shillings in silver, and Griffiths was supplied with one pound one shilling. I had only a few halfpence about me beside this money. I went with Griffiths in the afternoon to the sign of the Fountain in the Minories; we went first to the sign of the Grave Maurice with Mr. Christmas and Mr. Thomas Foy < no role > . Then we were followed by Mr. Christmas and Mr. Thomas Foy < no role > to the Fountain in the Minories; Christmas and Foy did not go in. Grithths and I went in, Foy and Christmas remaining out. When we went in, there was the prisoner, Andrew Savage < no role > , and another man; a little while after that, the prisoner Benjamin Savage < no role > came in, and sat down by Griffiths,and stopped there a little while, and then asked me how many I wanted; I told him six, and gave him the money; then I told Grffiths to give him his money, and he gave him the one pound note and the shilling.

Q. Was any thing said about the former evening - A. Yes; Benjamin said to me and Griffiths, it is a pity you did not stop a little longer last night, as Tom ran home and came back with them. I considered Tom to be the man who served them with them. Then they both went out. Andrew Savage came back first. In a very short time, Benjamin came in. Then Benjamin gave me my six and be gave Griffiths his two. When I had received them, I put them into my right hand waistcoat pocket; as soon as we came out of the house, I delivered mine to Richard Griffiths < no role > . Then we were all standing together, and Benjamin said to me, if you want any more, meet me at the White Swan to-morrow in Coleman-street, at twelve o'clock. I told Benjamin Savage if we wanted any more we would call; I did not expect we should, but if we did we should know where to find him. We then went to the first public-house, and there the five of us had something to drink, the two prisoners, Griffiths, I, and another person. After we parted with the prisoners, we went to the Grave Maurice in Whitechapel-road. We found there Mr. Thomas Foy < no role > and Mr. Charles Christmas < no role > . I had previously delivered my notes to Griffiths, and he delivered them to Mr. Foy. We next met the prisoners on the 22nd of September.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL. My Lord, we are now coming to the subject of the present indictment.

Q. Now, before you went to this meeting, were you again searched - A. I was; I can't tell by whom but Mr. Christmas was present. I was furnished with a one-pound Bank of England note, and one-pound two in silver; Griffiths was furnished with a one-pound Bank of England note, and one shilling, and then we went to the Fountain in the Minories, as we had appointed on the Saturday night; as we had not come on the Sunday to Coleman-street. Accordingly Griffiths, and I went to the Fountain, at twelve o'clock at noon; I believe Mr. Christmas followed us, and if I am not mistaken, one of the Mr. Foys, but I am not certain which, if either. We went there at twelve o'clock and stopped there until about three minutes after one; then we went away from there; neither of the prisoners were there when we went, nor did either of them come while we stopped. We then went to the Old Rum Puncheon, in the Minories, commonly called the Gully Hole, in Rose and Crown-court; it is generally called so, but I believe it was the Rum Puncheon. When we went there. neither of the prisoners were there; but we stopped a little while, and then they both came in. When they came in, we told them where we had been, and one of them, but I can't say which but both were present, said, there could be nothing, done until about eight o'clock at night. A little after seven, I, Griffiths, Andrew Savage, and Benjamin Savage < no role > went close to the church at Aldgate, and we staid near the watchhouse, and the prisoner Andrew Savage asked me how many I wanted, and I told him four; and I gave him a genuine one pound Bank of England note and one pound two in silver, which was the money that I received. Then I saw Griffiths deliver him his one pound note and his shilling.

Q. To which - A. To Andrew. When Andrew received the money of us both, he said to Benjamin, then take them somewhere where you know, and he took us to the Coach and Horses in Northumberland-alley, Fenchurch-street. I can't say rightly how long we staid there, but I think it was an hour before Andrew returned, and when he returned he said, my darling boys, you are enjoying yourselves. Then he gave me my four notes, and I put them into my right hand waistcoat pocket. I then saw him give Griffiths two, but they were not separated, and there might be only one; there were two I believe. Griffiths put them into his left hand pantaloon pocket I believe. We stood there a little while together, and then we all four came out and another man with us. As soon as I got to the door, I gave my four notes to Richard Griffiths < no role > ; that was before I parted with the prisoners, but I believe they did not see me give them to Griffiths, but we were altogether. We then went to the top of Northumberland-alley, and went to a wine vaults nearly opposite, if not quite, to the India House.

RICHARD GRIFFITHS < no role > . I am a gun maker by business; that is what I was brought up to. I know the two prisoners at the bar very well. I was employed by Mr. Westwood the Solicitor for the Bank of England to go and buy forged notes of the two Savages, in company with John Charles < no role > . I first saw them on the 29th of August, at the sign of the Crown and Cushion in London Wall. When we went there the prisoners were not in the house at all, but we saw them in about a quarter of an hour after; there were two persons in company with them, one named Allcock, and another named Welch. We then sat down and called for some beer, and drank together.

Q. Were you made known to the prisoners at that time - A. Yes, I had been introduced to them by John Charles < no role > .

Q. Did anything pass between you two about the prisoners - A. Yes; Charles asked me to give him my money; that was in the hearing and presence of the prisoners; we were all in one box together. I gave him my money to give to Andrew Savage, to purchase two forged one pound Bank notes; I had one pound, and a shilling, which I had received of Mr. Westwood. A little after, both the Savages went out; on their return they sat down, and Andrew Savage < no role > spoke close to Charles's ear, so that I could not hear. I then saw Andrew Savage < no role > give Charles< no role > some paper.

Q. Did you afterwards see Charles give anything to Mr. Westwood - A. Yes; the next morning I saw Charles give Mr. Westwood six forged Bank of England notes. On the 30th, Charles and I were in company together most part of the day. In the morn-of that day. I had received one pound one from Mr. Westwood, and Charles in my presence received I believe three pounds three shillings in silver; three-shilling pieces, and eighteen-penny pieces; theywere all marked by Mr. Foy. In the evening of that day, I met the prisoner at the White Swan, in Long Alley, Moore Fields; I joined company with them there; I stayed there about an hour; John Charles and Andrew Savage < no role > went out there, leaving me and Benjamin together. In a short time afterwards Benjamin Savage < no role > told me he did not like the appearance of two men that came into the house while they were gone, so we left it, and went to the Crown and Cushion, in London Wall. When we got there, we found Andrew Savage < no role > , John Charles, and a person named Welch. We joined company with them, and went into the same box. Benjamin Savage there asked me how many I wanted; I told him two; I gave him a one pound Bank of England note and a shilling, which I had received from Mr. Westwood. Then I saw Charles give him three pounds three shillings in silver; three shilling pieces and eighteen penny pieces. Benjamin Savage then took off his hat, and took out a white handkerchief which he had in his hat, and wrapped the money up in the handkerchief in separate parcels; then he went away. In about a quarter of an hour he returned, and said,

"nothing could be done to night;" and I saw him give Charles his money back, and he gave me mine. Then we came to the door along with John Charles and Benjamin Savage.

Q. Did you make any appointment to meet again - A. Yes; Benjamin told us to meet him at the Fountain in the Minories, the next evening.

Q. Did you go to the Fountain - A. Yes; in company with John Charles < no role > . They were not there; they had not come in. We waited about an hour; then we went out and went to the Old Rum Puncheon in Rose and Crown Court. That had not been mentioned as a place of meeting; but Charles said he thought he could find them there.

Q. What day are you speaking of - A. Saturday.

Q. Did you go to this other public-house - A. Yes; we went to the Rum Poncheon; we did not find them there, but they came in, in a short time; both came in. They said nothing could be done until eight o'clock that evening.

Q. Did you hear either of the prisoners say any thing about not waiting the night before - A. No; I did not.

Q. Did you part that night - A. Yes; we went down to the Crown and Cushion first; that was at night, at about eight o'clock. We were with them there; we went thence to the Fountain.

Q. What took place at the Fountain - A. When we went in, Andrew Savage was sitting there.

Q. Where did you meet on the Saturday - A. At the Fountain.

Q. Nothing having been done on the Friday, you were to meet on the Saturday - A. Yes.

Q. Where did Charles go on the Saturday - A. To the Fountain.

Q. Were you to have met them - A. Yes; it was so agreed, so we went there on the Saturday at about half past seven o'clock.

Q. Before you went to the Fountain, had any money been given to Charles - A. Yes; I believe a one pound note, and one pound two shillings in silver.

Q. Had any money been given to you - A. Yes; one pound one shilling, Mr. Christmas gave it to me. I am not certain whether he gave the money to Charles.

Q. Where did you and Charles go to - A. To the Fountain, at about half past seven in the evening; and saw Andrew Savage there, and Welch. I had three or four shillings besides the money I had received from Mr. Christmas, to pay expences. Charles had a three shilling piece to pay his expences.

Q. Now you went there and saw Andrew Savage. Now what passed - A. A short time afterwards. Benjamin came in, and he said,

"it was a pity we did not stop ten minutes longer, as Tom ran home last night, and came back with some." Benjamin then sat down by me; he asked me how many I wanted; I told him two; and then John Charles told me to give him my money; I gave him the one pound note and a shilling, which I had received from Mr. Christmas. I saw Charles give him his money; I believe three pounds. Then Benjamin went out, and he was gone about half an hour. and then came back. He sat down with me; he gave me two one pound forged bank notes, and I saw him give Charles his. He gave him six; I put the notes which I had got from him into my left hand pantaloon pocket; and I saw Charles put his into his right hand waistcoat pocket. In a few minutes we all came out together. Benjamin Savage told us, if we wanted any more on the Sunday, to meet him at the White Swan public-house, in Colman-street, at twelve o'clock. Then we drank together; we went into Aldgate together, and into a public-house opposite Aldgate Church; soon after we parted; we had half a pint of gin at that house, and then parted. Charles and I came away together. Charles gave me six forged one pound notes. He gave them to me about five minutes after we came out of the Fountain; he had not been out of my sight from the time he received them, until he gave them to me. He had not been out of my sight from the time he left the Bank of England, until those notes were first in his possession. He had been searched before he went away; he was searched by Mr. Foy, in my presence. The six notes I received from Charles, I put into my right hand pantaloon pocket, and went then to the Grave Maurice, and met Mr. Foy and Mr. Christmas there, and gave the six notes I received from Charles, and my own two, to Mr. Thomas Foy < no role > . I marked those notes after I gave them to Mr. Foy, but before I lost sight of them.

Q. Now look at these two - A. Those are the two which I purchased.

Q. Now look at these six - A. I will; those are the six which I got from Charles. We were to meet again on the 2nd of September; we were to meet on the Monday at the Fountain; that was agreed if we did not meet on the Saturday; we were to meet at nine o'clock on the Monday morning at the Fountain; Charles and I went. I had a one pound note and a shilling, and three or four shilling in silver. I had that money from Mr. Christmas. Some money was given to Charles also, in my presence; I believe a one pound note and one pound two in silver; I saw he was searched first. We went from there to the Fountain; we got there between nine and ten o'clock;we did not see the prisoners; they did not come there again; I went from there to the Gulley Hole, more property called the Rum Puncheon with John Charles; they were not there when we went in, but they came in shortly afterwards. They then told us nothing could be done until eight o'clock. Then we stopped there with them all day; and then the two Savages, Charles, and I went to Aldgate, close to the church, where Andrew Savage asked me how many I wanted; I told him two; and I saw Charles give Andrew Savage < no role > some money. I gave him my money also; I gave him a one pound note and a shilling; the same I received from Mr. Christmas. Andrew Savage < no role > then told Benjamin, to take us to he knew where. He took us to the Coach and Horses, in Northumberland-alley. Fenchurch street ; we sat down together, and in about three quarters of an hour, Andrew Savage came in; he sat down, and gave me two forged Bank of England notes; at the time he gave me those, Benjamin was present; we were all together. He gave John Charles < no role > four notes; I put my two in my left hand pantaloon pocket as before; Charles put his into his right hand waistcoat pocket, and after we came out, Charles gave me the four pound notes; I put them into my right hand pantaloon pocket, away from the two I had. From the time Charles received those notes until the time he gave them to me, he was not out of my sight. We then went as far as the India House, and drank there together, opposite the India House. I left John Charles with the two Savages, and went to the Grave Maurice immediately from them, and gave my two notes, and Charles's four to Mr. Christmas. I kept them separate all the time; I had them, and marked them those I received from the elder Savage.

CHARLES CHRISTMAS < no role > I am Investigator of bank notes. I have seen Griffiths and Charles in company. Charles and Griffiths came to our office, Charles was searched there, and was Griffiths so as to ascertain that he had no bank notes about him. He was supplied with money there to the amount of three pounds three shillings; I gave that money to Foy, who had previously marked it; he gave Charles three pounds three shillings, and Griffiths one pound one shilling I am not confounding two different periods. After they had got this, they went to the Fountain in the Minories followed by me and Thomas Foy. We kept at a distance to avoid being observe to be of the party. They both went in we remained in the street some time, we were there for about an hour or more, and they did not come. We returned to the office but did not see any thing of them; about ten o'clock I saw Griffiths; he delivered to me the notes which he had purchased; he marked them before I took them they are all foegeries. On the 2nd I was to watch were Charles and Griffiths went to. On the 31st, I followed them to the Fountain in the Minories at some distance behind; this was about half past seven in the evening; I waited there for about ten minutes; Andrew Savage then came out from the Fountain. He went across the Minories, and went to the Coach and Horses public house, in Northumberland-alley; I followed him; I waited under the archway for about ten minutes whilst he was in the public house; he came out accompanied by a man, a stranger to me; he came out, and went into Jury-street, and under the East India company wall, they were met by Benjamin Savage; they all three stopped together a few minutes, and then they went to the Bunch of Grapes.

Q. What did they appear to be doing before that A. They appeared to be exchanging something from one another; then they went all three to the Bunch of Grapes; Benjamin Savage < no role > gave this strange man some money.

Q. Is he the person that you now know by the name of Tom - A. yes.

THOMAS FOY < no role > . Corroborated the testimony of the last witness.

ANDREW SAVAGE GUILTY , DEATH aged 42.

BENJAMIN SAVAGE < no role > GUILTY , DEATH aged 28.

First Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Baron Graham.