764. ROBERT BUTT proceedingsdefend , MARY WALTON proceedingsdefend , CHARLES WALTON proceedingsdefend , JOSEPH COPE proceedingsdefend , and SARAH SLATER proceedingsdefend , were indicted for that they on the 22nd of August , one piece of false, feigned and counterfeited money, and coin, made to the likeness and and similitude of good silver, current money of the realm, called a sixpence, falsely and deceitfully did counterfeit and coin .

SECOND COUNT for like offence, stating it to be a shilling they did forge, counterfeit, and coin.

WILLIAM STAFFORD < no role > . Q. What were you in March last - A. I was a soldier in the East Middlesex militia. In March last I went to the Crispin public-house in Grub-street, I there saw Butt and Mary Walton < no role > , and in the evening of the same day, at the same house, I there saw Butt, Cope, Mary Walton < no role > , and Sarah Slater < no role > , they were altogether there; Mary Walton < no role > asked me if I came out of Birmingham, I said, yes, I knew Birmingham; she asked me if I knew her brother, one Boot, I said I believed I did, I recollected Boot being in the Warwickshire militia. Butt came to me and asked me if I was down to the queer, that meaned counterfeit money; Butt then asked me if I knew the process of rolling and cutting; I told him I had heard soldiers in the Warwickshire militia talk of it; Cope sat on the opposite side, he must have heard the conversation, because he came and offered me drink afterwards.

Q. Did you afterwards become acquainted where Butt lived - A. Not directly. Sometime about Easter he lived in Hooper-street, St. George's fields , he asked me to assist him in moving his goods there; I helped to move a lathe, a cutting engine, several boxes, and several implements belonging to chair-making.

Q. Had Butt ever told you for what use he applied this cutting engine - A. Not till I was carrying part of it in my hands, he then said it was part of a cutting engine for cutting bobs and tanners; a shilling they call bob, and a sixpence, tanner; I removed these things into Checquer-alley ; I have been up in his shop at Checquer-alley, and saw him cutting at the engine. I have been in company with Cope and Butt at the City of Chester public-house, in Bunhill-row, Mary Walton < no role > and Sarah Slater < no role > were there; I have heard Cope complain to Butt that he wanted his blanks to go on with. Blanks that Butt cut out for Cope to finish.

Q. How do you know that Cope was to finish them - A. Because I have heard Cope say he should bring him plates, and then asked him when he should have the goods back again, and sometimes he has given directions where to go and get plates, and then he asked Butts when he should have the goods back again.

Q. When Cope got any of these blanks back again, what was Cope to do with them - A. I never saw him finish them; I heard Cope say he wanted them very bad to finish.

Q. At the times that you have heard this conversation pass you have told us the two women were present - A. Yes, in general. These conversations were at several times.

Q. At any time was Sarah Slater < no role > there - A. Yes.

Q. Was Charles Walton < no role > present at any of them - A. No, I dot recollect he was; I first saw Charles Walton about the 10th or 11th of August.

Q. Now in the course of time, after Butt had removed from Hooper-street, did you see him cutting out any thing - A. In Checquer-alley, several times; I have seen him cutting out blanks for shillings and sixpences, he cut them out of metal plates.

Q. Have you ever seen Cope give any plates to Butt - A. I do not recollect that ever I did. After Butt had cut out the blanks from the plates, he smoothed the edges at the lathe by a file, and I have seen Mary Walton < no role > cutting at the engine when I have been at Butt's house; she lived with Butt's; I have seen her bring in a bundle at Butt's house, which I understood from her were plates. I have seen Butts and Mary Walton < no role > count the blanks, clap them in scores, and give them to Cope at the City of Chester.

Q. For what purpose - A. I expect, to finish, because he in general furnished people with counterfeit money. I never heard him say any thing about finishing but once, that was at the City of Chester public-house; Cope shewed me some sixpences, they were very rough, he told me they had been finished by a young man that he had learned; he wanted me to have some of his goods to put off. I recollect that he has told Butts that he wanted his blanks to finish, to execute an order that he had to send in the country.

Q. I believe you were afterwards taken up - A. Yes, on the 25th of June.

Q. Now from that period of March, which you have been speaking of, down to the 25th of June, have you had frequent opportunity of seeing that which you have described - A. Yes.

Q. You afterwards became acquainted with Mr. Powell, assistant to the solicitor of the mint - A. I did. I wrote to the secretary of state, I gave Mr. Powell intelligence, and acted under his directions. I was taken at London, and conveyed under an escort; from the 25th of June I was in the Savoy as a deserter, till the 25th of July. On the 25th of July I went into the country, I gave some information when I was at Guildford.

Q. About the 10th or 12th of August did you see the prisoners - A. I saw Butt at his own house in Checquer-alley.

Q. After you came to town did you as any of those times that you went to Butt's house, see him do any thing - A. Yes, I did, I saw him cutting at the engine, and rounding the edges of the blanks, which he had cut out by the engine, and I have seen him give them to Cope, as I expected, to finish.

Q. Did you see Mary Walton < no role > at this time - A. Yes, and generally at all meetings; she was present when Butt was cutting out. I have seen her once or twice cutting at the engine.

Q. When did you first see Charles Walton < no role > - A. About the 10th or 11th of August I saw him at Butt's house; that was the first time I saw him.

Q. Who was present - A. Mary Walton, Charles Walton, and Butt.

Q. Did you at any time afterwards, and how soon, the all the prisoners together - A. Yes, I saw them together at the City of Chester public house, in Bunhill-row. (I never saw Cope at the house in Checquer alley) Cope seemed very glad to see me; I asked Cope if he would let me have any white ones to go on, that is, to pass them off in circulation; Cope said he would, but he had not served his customers, he could not give them to me till he had served his customers.

Q. Did you keep any memorandum of what you did from day to day by order of Mr. Powell - A. Yes. On the 17th of August I met Sarah Slater, at the City of Chester in Bunhill-row; I asked her for the goods which I had ordered; she said that she was very sorry that Joe had not been able to do any work, that she herself had been very hard to work. On the 22nd of August I went to Butt's house, and to the City of Chester; I kept up my acquaintance with them till that day.

JOHN ARMSTRONG < no role > . I am an officer belonging to Worship-street office. On Wednesday the 22nd of August, I went with Vickrey, Bishop, and my son, Joshua Armstrong, to No. 19, Peter-street, Saffron-hill, that house is kept by Mr. Quin, a chandler's shop.

Q. When you went there did you find either of the prisoners there - A. No; we went up to the garret door, put our feet to the door, and shoved it open, having a search warrant; we had information of Mrs. Quin, that a man and a woman lived in the garret; when we got into that garret there were some drawers, and out of these drawers these counterfeit shillings were taken by Vickrey and given to me; I was standing close by Vickrey, eight sixpences, and I believe, seven shillings. In the same drawer was this sissel, and these bits of silver.

Q. Sissel is the remains of the plate, after the blanks have been cut out - A. Yes. After I had possession of them things I left Mason in the house with Mrs. Quin below, to apprehend any person that might come to that garret; afterwards I went with the other officers to Butt's house.

Q. Was any thing else found in these lodgings - A. I cannot say. I went with Bishop, Vickrey, and my son, to Butt's house, No. 4, Checquer-alley, Bunhill-row; we went in at the door, and Mrs. Walton was just in the passage, Butts and Charles Walton < no role > were in a side room on the ground, we secured them instantly. In a moment my son came down stairs, he had run up. We told them our business. I took the two men and Mrs. Walton up in the garret, and the first thing that I saw was this cutting instrument, fixed as it is now, with a cutter in it that fits the size of a counterfeit sixpence, it was matched to it, and another cutter laying by the side. These are all the counterfeit money found by me at Cope's; this is one of the finished sixpences I found at Copes, it corresponds with the engine found at Butt's. At Butts's this piece of metal was laying by the side of the cutter.

JOHN VICKREY < no role > . I was in company with Armstrong and the other officers when they went to Cope's lodgings.

COURT. How do you know it was Cope's lodgings. We took Cope in a different part of the town; I told him that we should take him back to his lodgings in Peter-street, he said he did not lodge in Peter-street.

Q. Do you know in fact that he lodged there - A. I only know from what the people told me to his face.

MARY QUIN < no role > . I live at No. 19, Peter-street, Saffron-hill. Cope, and the woman by the side of him, lodged in the front garret; they went by the name of Williams, they had taken the room on the 11th of June.

Q. Do you know what they did in that room - A. No, I never went up to it.

Q. Did you ever perceive any smell there - A. Yes, but I took that smell to be from the slaughterhouse.

Q. Have you smelled any thing like it since - A. No, I have not noticed it since.

Q. Were you before the magistrate - A. Yes.

Q. Did you smell aquafortis there - A. Yes.

Q. Was the smell of aquafortis the same that you smelled there - A. It was something like it, Mrs Hunt said it was like it.

Q. to Vickrey. Was it in that house where that woman lived that you went - A. It was; she was below stairs; I went into the front garret of that house in a drawer in a small chest of drawers in that room the money which Armstrong produced was found; I saw the money and desired him to take it out, and them pieces of silver that he produced was in the same drawer, and also the Sissell; there were a number of cloths in the tub wet, they appeared as if they had been just washed; I examined the cloths, they appeared such cloths as have been always found where I have been in the habit of finding counterfeit money, they are stained green in different shades. There was a table in the room, it was not brought away at that time; I have examined that table, there is a green colour upon it, and in the crevise of the table there was some white stuff. which I have no doubt was cream of tartar, and the green stains I have no doubt were produced by aquafortis acting on the metal, and the corner of the table appears to be worn away, as if by being rubbed with sand paper.

NOT GUILTY .

First Middlesex jury, before Lord Ellenborough.