488. (M.) Samuel Gillam proceedingsdefend , Esq ; was indicted, together with a certain person to the jurors unknown, for the wilful murder of William Redburn proceedingsvictim ; for that the certain person to the jurors unknown, with a musket loaded with gunpowder and a leaden bullet, on the 10th of May, on and against the said William Redburn < no role > , feloniously, wilfully, and of malice aforethought, well knowing the musket being so charged, did discharge and shoot off, by the force of the gunpowder, him the said Redburn, in and upon the hind-part near the middle of the thigh, did strike and penetrate, giving to him one mortal wound, the breadth half an inch, and depth one inch, of which mortal wound, as well in the parish of St. George the Martyr, Southwark, as in the parish of St. Dunstan, Stepney, by which means the said William Redburn < no role > , from the 10th of May , did languish till the 13th of the same, and then died; and that the said Samuel Gillam < no role > , Esq; feloniously, wilfully, and of malice aforethought, was present, aiding, helping, abetting, comforting, and maintaining him the said person unknown, to do and commit the said murder . * + || ++

John Taylor < no role > . I live in High-street, Mile end, New-town, I am a journeyman weaver , William Redburn < no role > was the same; he lived in High-street, I have lived next door but one to him 18 years; he and I went from home about two o'clock in the afternoon on Tuesday the 10th of May, we were going to Westminster, we went over London-bridge through St. George's-fields.

Q. Was that your nearest way?

Taylor. I believe it was.

Q. Did you stop any where in your way?

Taylor. Yes, we light of a couple of acquaintance the Borough, and drank a couple of pots of beer with them.

Q. Did your acquaintance go with you?

Taylor. No, we went into St. George's-fields.

Q. What time did you get there?

Taylor. It might want about a quarter of three o'clock, the horse-guards were just come; they were clearing the people out of the fields, for that reason we staid.

Q. Where did you stop?

Taylor. We stopped in the causeway towards the Hay-market.

Q. How far from the King's-bench prison?

Taylor. I believe fifty yards or better from the soldiers when they fired.

Court. The question is, how far from the King's-bench prison?

Taylor. I believe it may be about an hundred yards or more.

Q. How far might you be from the foot-soldiers?

Taylor. About fifty yards.

Q. How far from the horse?

Taylor. I cannot tell, they were mixed, the horse had been in and cleared the people out of the fields.

Q. Did you make any stoppage there?

Taylor. Yes, we stopped about five or six minutes, and in that time there were two or three of the foot-soldiers fired.

Q. Was there any rioting?

Taylor. I saw no rioting, nor nothing done in the time I stood there; I was not there above five or six minutes before the firing was.

Q. How long did you continue there in the whole?

Taylor. Not above five or six minutes.

Q. Do you know whether any accident happened to William Redburn < no role > ?

Taylor. When two or three of the soldiers fired off, he said to me, Taylor, let us go; we came out of the causeway into the road, our backs were towards the soldiers.

Q. What road?

Taylor. The road that leads to Westminster from out of Blackman-street; we turned our backs, and in that time he received a ball.

Q. Do you mean he received the wound the instant he returned back?

Taylor. I cannot say the exact time, because a great many people were running; when he stopped he told me he was wounded; I looked down, and saw the blood upon his stocking.

Q. Where was he wounded?

Taylor. In the hind-part of the thigh.

Q. Was he running or walking, or was it at the time he was turning?

Taylor. At the time he was running I believe, but I cannot justly say, I did not know it till the time he stopped; I had not power to help him along, though a great many did; he went to a surgeon in Blackman-street.

Q. Did you see the wound examined?

Taylor. The surgeon probed it, it went in behind and came out before; I was told the ball was found in his breeches, but I did not see it.

Q. What number of people might there be?

Taylor. A vast many, a great concourse of people.

Q. Did you observe what the people were doing of?

Taylor. They were standing, looking on, I saw nothing else.

Q. Did you see the defendant, Mr. Gillam, at the time.

Taylor. No, I cannot say I did.

Q. What was you looking at?

Taylor. At the soldiers and the mob.

Q. Was there any thing you saw between the soldiers and the mob previous to the firing?

Taylor. No, I did not see any thing at all.

Q. Did you see the mob do any thing?

Taylor. I did not see them do any thing, I did not see any body make any disturbance during the whole time I was there; it was but a short time I was there.

Cross examination.

Q. Can you give any guess what number of people might be there?

Taylor. No, I cannot.

Q. Was there five or six thousand?

Taylor. I cannot tell, there was a vast number.

Q. Had you heard before you set out that this mob was assembled?

Taylor. I did hear there was a mobbing.

Q. Where did you hear of this disorder?

Taylor. I was at home when I heard it.

Council. So you chose to go that way?

Taylor. We did it for a walk, we did not mean to stop.

Council. What only to pass through this five or six thousand that were looking at one another in your way to Westminster, and you did not see the least rioting, no mischief done, no stones throwed, no indecent expressions of any sort, but the people all civil and obliging to one another?

Taylor. All very quiet while I was there.

Richard Nicholl < no role > . I am a rope-maker by business, and am a constable of St. George the Martyr; I was posted at the King's-bench prison the 10th of May, I came there at half an hour past two in the afternoon.

Q. Whereabouts was you posted?

Nicholl. Near the door.

Q. Was you near Mr. Gillam?

Nicholl. I was.

Q. Give an account what number of people there were, and what was going forward, as well as you can, at the time you came there.

Nicholl. I was there between two and three, but that was not the first time I came.

Council. I mean to ask you the first time you came?

Nicholl. I came first between ten and eleven.

Q. Did you keep pretty much in the same place?

Nicholl. No, I was walking about.

Q. What number of people do you think there was?

Nicholl. There was a vast quantity of people.

Q. Was there five hundred, or a thousand, or five thousand, speak as near as you can?

Nicholl. There were a thousand or more for what I know.

Q. Whereabouts were the soldiers when you first came?

Nicholl. They were up against the King's-bench, they were foot-soldiers.

Q. Do you remember when the horse came?

Nicholl. Yes.

Q. What time was that?

Nicholl. About two in the afternoon.

Q. Endeavour to give an account, as near as you can recollect, of the general behaviour of the people?

Nicholl. When I first came down before the King's-bench I went nigh the brick wall, Mr. Ponton said, there was a paper stuck up against the prison wall, he desired the paper might be taken down; Mr. Latham the constable took it down; soon after that the people cried out, give us the paper, and throwed stones at us.

Q. What time was this?

Nicholl. This was between eleven and twelve, as nigh as I can guess.

Q. Who did they throw stones at?

Nicholl. At the Justices and constables as they went towards the marshal's house.

Q. How long did that throwing of stones continue?

Nicholl. It continued from the time of the taking dow n the paper till they got to the marshal's house; the Justices and constables went in there for soldiers, as I believe; after they had got into the house the people kept on throwing stones, I stood at the door, the people kept throwing stones very much, some of the stones passed me as I stood on the step, and went in at the door as the door stood open.

Q. Did they go in at the door or window, or how?

Nicholl. Them that I saw went in at the door.

Q. How long might the throwing of stones continue?

Nicholl. About four or five minutes.

Q. Were there not some windows broke?

Nicholl. Not at that time, I did not see any, they just went through; there is a way through the house, and there was a guard of soldiers, they came from behind the house, and the guard of soldiers came after them; they came from behind round to the front of the house.

Q. How many Justices were there?

Nicholl. There were three there I believe, Mr. Ponton, Mr. Gillam, and another, I do not know the other indeed; when they came round the house the people began to holloo, and cry out for the paper, and kept throwing of stones.

Q. I want to know how long they kept throwing stones after the Justices retreated into the house?

Nicholl. They kept throwing stones till they came round again from behind the house, and after that they threw stones again; upon that Mr. Gillam, Mr. Ponton, and the other gentleman, drawed up to read the riot act, and while they were reading it, or were going to read it, the mob of people heaved stones at the Justices; I saw one stone cut a serjeant's lip, and another struck Mr. Ponton on the breast.

Q. Who was endeavouring to read the riot act?

Nicholl. Mr. Gillam was; after that they came from there, and marched the soldiers half way down the brick wall.

Q. Did you hear him read the riot act?

Nicholl. I cannot say I did, there they halted; there was a man hallooing out, Wilkes and liberty for ever! he was in the field facing the brick wall, about five yards from it; upon that I was ordered to take hold of him.

Q. Who ordered you?

Nicholl. I believe it was Mr. Ponton's voice, it was one of the Justices; I went towards the man; getting within ten yards of him I saw him run, I looked over, my left hand, and saw an officer and some soldiers running after him; I saw them as far as the Hay-market, then I lost sight of him; that is all I know of that part, this was near twelve o'clock. About one I was standing near the road, where were some soldiers posted; the people behaved very riotous, they throwed stones at the soldiers, so that the soldiers could not keep their posts for them; Mr. Gillam was there, he begged of the people to disperse and go about their business, he told them the riot act had been read; some people there said, d - n you, we do not believe the riot act has been read; Mr. Gillam said, if I thought that would appease you I would read it again; upon that he took a pocket-book out of his pocket, and called out silence, and read it again, I heard him read it; the people came round about him, they were pretty silent at that time, and afterwards he begged of them again to disperse.

Q. How far might this be from the King's-bench prison where he was reading the riot act the second time?

Nicholl. It was about three or fourscore yards from the prison door.

Q. How far from the wall?

Nicholl. About forty yards from the wall, this was about one o'clock.

Q. How long was this about?

Nicholl. In talking to them and reading the act might be about half an hour.

Q. What number of people might be collected together by one o'clock?

Nicholl. There might be eight or nine hundred people round him for what I know, there was a vast many.

Q. Was there any general cry among the mob, did you hear any general expressions made use of?

Nicholl. None in particular that I know of, except the men crying out, d - n you, we will not believe you; between two and three o'clock, as I was standing by the King's-bench, Mr. Gillam said to me, constable, go with me; I went with him to the soldiers, they were posted near a road; when we got there he begged of the people to disperse, he told them the riot act had been read, and they were every soul liable of being taken up; while he was begging of them to disperse they threw stones at the soldiers, Mr. Gillam, and me, as we stood all together; Mr. Gillam said, then, for God's sake, good people go away, if I see any more stones throwed I will order the guards to fire: while he was so saying a stone came and hit him over the head, about the temple, it caused him to reel three or four yards backwards; and when he recovered himself, or soon after, I heard him say, fire; the soldiers were then in two rows, they fell back a few paces into four rows, and then fired.

Q. How many in front were there then?

Nicholl. I do not know whether there were four or six; after they had fired the horse rode down and fired, some of them were at the farther part of the field, they came riding up to the same place where the foot had fired.

Q. from a juryman. How long had the riot act been read?

Nicholl. It had been read above an hour the second time; it was above an hour and a half after the second time, as near as I can guess.

Q. Was there any order for the horse to fire?

Nicholl. No, I heard none; after they had fired I saw a man set upon the ground wounded in the path-way, he held his hand upon his thigh, and I saw blood in his hand, and it ran down.

Q. How was that man dressed?

Nicholl. I do not know, they said he was a weaver.

Q. Was you pretty near the soldiers when they fired?

Nicholl. I was.

Q. Can you tell whether all the soldiers, or only the front row fired?

Nicholl. The two first rows fired first, then afterwards the two second rows fired, there might be a quarter of a minute between.

Q. You say you was there from eleven till towards three, do you recollect at any time between that time, any attempts to apprehend any of the persons?

Nicholl. A good many were taken up.

Q. Was any body rescued that they had apprehended?

Nicholl. None that I saw.

Court. Yet they would not disperse?

Nicholl. No, they would not.

William Abbot < no role > . I am a constable of St. Olave's, and live in the Maze-pond, Soutwark; I was at the King's-bench prison on the 10th of May, there were a great number of people gathered together; I came there without my staff, Mr. Ponton asked me where my staff was; I went home and got it, and came back about one.

Court. Tell your own story.

Abbot. There was a stone, or something or other, came and hit Mr. Gillam upon the head, between two and three; I was in the fields near Mr. Gillam.

Q. Who appeared to throw it?

Abbot. Some of the mob did, I cannot say who, the stone made him stagger; presently after that somebody gave orders to fire, I heard it, but who it was I cannot say.

Q. Did you see who it was?

Abbot. No, I did not, I was looking towards the people at the same time.

Cross examination.

Council. You had been there during the whole of the day?

Abbot. Yes.

Q. How did the people behave?

Abbot. They hallooed Wilkes and liberty, and wanted to see him.

Q. What was done?

Abbot. There was nothing done but throwing a parcel of sods and stones, the Justices desired they would go about their business.

Q. How long did this continue?

Abbot. This continued a long time; I saw Mr. Ponton struck in the morning before that.

Q. What with?

Abbot. It might be a stone for what I know; Mr. Gillam was struck on the head, and a serjeant was cut on the lip; the throwing stones was several times repeated, I heard the Justices desire them to disperse a great many times.

Q. Did you hear the proclamation read?

Abbot. No, I did not, I was in the other part of the field, desiring the people to disperse; the Justices gave us orders to disperse the mob as much as we could.

Q. Did you attempt to do it?

Abbot. I did, I gave them good words, but it all ended in nothing at all.

Q. Did not many of the mob go off?

Abbot. No, no, no, no.

Q. Can you tell how many people were there?

Abbot. There were fifteen or twenty thousand.

Robert Allen < no role > . I am a constable; I was present on the 10th of May when the firing was; I don't think there was upon my soul any provocation, for there was no attempt made to take any prisoners; there were a great number of people in the fields, it was a general thoroughfare, and I believe every body that went through the fields stopped there; there was a great party of horse-guards came and rode among the people, and caused a great disturbance; the goal is railed round, and the people were leaning upon these rails; the horse rode among them and dispersed them to the out borders of the fields; when they came to the road and causeway they buzzaed and bissed the soldiers, that was all the provocation I saw; the horse occasioned a great disturbance, and the whole disturbance I believe; the people buzzaed and bissed, but no farther riot.

Q. Did you see nothing else?

Allen. I saw two or three people that fell with their wounds.

Q. At that time do you remember any orders given to fire?

Allen. No, I was not near enough to hear that.

Q. Do you remember the time there was a firing?

Allen. I do.

Q. What was the manner of firing?

Allen. The body of soldiers were within about forty yards of the causeway, the way that people walk in; they call it platoons, I believe they were separated, not all together; they fired at random, half a dozen at a time, more or less; a great number of them loaded three times, and seemed to enjoy their fire, I thought it a great cruelty.

Q. What appeared to be the behaviour of the people?

Allen. Nothing but hissing at this time, and hissing the soldiers as they rode backwards and forwards.

Q. Were there no outrages?

Allen. I saw none at that time.

Q. What time was this?

Allen. This was about three, or a little after.

Q. Did you see any thing thrown?

Allen. I cannot say I saw a stone throwed the whole day to my knowledge; I was in different parts, I was not there at first.

Q. Did you see the weaver as was talked of?

Allen. No, I did not.

Cross examination.

Q. What time did you come first?

Allen. About two o'clock, some little time after Mr. Allen was murdered.

Q. Why was you not there sooner?

Allen. I am a peruke-maker and hatter, my business would not admit me sooner.

Q. Did you see the Justices?

Allen. I did; the commanding officer came up and said, I believe we have dispersed the mob; Mr. Gillam said, I hope there is no mischief done; this was a very short time after the firing; the commanding officer said, you may depend upon it there is no mischief done, because we always fire in the air; there was a great number of people afterwards reporting there was murder done.

Q. What officer was that?

Allen. That was the horse officer.

Q. Had you ever any conversation with Mr. Gillam yourself?

Allen. I had some little conversation with Mr. Gillam, but I suppose that is no way necessary in regard to the examination now, it is not worth mentioning, I think it will not avail any thing; there was one Boddington, a ball went through his thigh and shivered it; they were going to order me into confinement for saying it was a cruel thing; I said, gentlemen, as you have ordered this fire, it is very proper you should order this man away; Mr. Gillam said, why don't you go and take him away; I said it was not in my power to take him away.

Q. Why was you not there before two o'clock, was not you ordered to be there?

Allen. Yes.

Q. Why was not you there?

Allen. The hazard of my trade and family, it was not in my power to have come sooner.

Q. Was not you a constable at this time?

Allen. Yes, I was.

Q. I should be glad to know of you where you was at the time the firing was ordered?

Allen. I was in the field.

Q. How far from Mr. Gillam when the order was given?

Allen. I was by the Justices almost all the whole day.

Court. You said you was at a distance?

Allen. I was not near enough to hear any order for firing.

Q. I want to know where your duty was, how far distance?

Allen. Sometimes I suppose forty yards from Mr. Gillam, and sometimes close to him; at the time the firing was ordered, I suppose I might be about forty yards distant.

Q. Then if you was not near, how could you tell these people there was no occasion to order a firing?

Allen. I was amongst the general body of the people.

Q. Could you see the people upon whom the firing was?

Allen. Yes.

Q. What did you observe of their behaviour?

Allen. Nothing but hallooing, I did not observe any thing of the whole body of people but hallooing.

Q. Did you not see a stone throwed?

Allen. I did not the whole time I was there see a stone flung.

Q. from a Juryman. Was you no relation to this Allen that was killed?

Allen. No, none at all.

George Milford < no role > Flowers. I live in St. Olave's; I was present in St. George's-fields the 10th of May, I came there a few minutes after twelve.

Q. What part of the field did you go into?

Flowers. Into the hay-market; I continued there a quarter of an hour.

Q. Was you there any part of the day besides that quarter of an hour?

Flowers. Yes, I observed the people a good deal dissatisfied at the death of Allen; I did not come till after that.

Q. Did you see Mr. Gillam there?

Flowers. Not then.

Q. Did you observe any thing particular during that quarter of an hour?

Flowers. I did not see any thing but dissatisfaction at the death of Allen, they expressed it in words; I did not see any sticks or any thing throwed; I went to Mr. Allen's, and from thence down the Borough to enquire for a Justice of the peace, to have an evidence made of that young man.

Q. Can you tell what time you came back again?

Flowers. I came back near two; I went along the wall of the King's-bench between two and three; I passed from thence to the King's-bench, and from thence to the marshal's house.

Q. What did you observe during that time?

Flowers. There was a great tumult among the soldiers, I believe the people were fleeing and the soldiers fleeing.

Q. Were they the foot or horse?

Flowers. I was not in a situation to observe the foot, this was the horse; I was close by the prison wall.

Q. Was you there the time the foot fired?

Flowers. I did not observe that I was, I did not remain, but passed along.

Q. Did you see Mr. Gillam at that time?

Flowers. I saw him a little after, but not immediately; I was waiting to obtain a warrant for a soldier that had killed Mr. Allen; Mr. Gillam took off his wig and rubbed his head, he said he had received a blow with a brickbat or something, but he thanked God, he said that his skull was thick it had not hurt it.

Q. Did Mr. Gillam give any reason for firing?

Flowers. He did not in my hearing.

Q. Did you see Redburn that day?

Flowers. Not to my knowledge; I had some conversation with Mr. Gillam in the evening, he said he had had something throwed at him.

Q. Whether Mr. Gillam at any other part of the day gave any reason for firing?

Flowers. He did nothing but what I have mentioned before.

James Darbyshire < no role > sworn.

Q. Do you know Mr. Gillam?

Darbyshire. Yes, Sir.

Q. Do you remember this 10th of May?

Darbyshire. Yes, very well.

Q. Had you any conversation with Mr. Gillam about the accident that day?

Darbyshire. Yes.

Q. Did he give any reason why he ordered the soldiers to fire, what time of the day was it?

Darbyshire. About one or two o'clock, this was after the murder of Mr. Allen's son.

Q. Before the killing of Redburn?

Darbyshire. Yes.

Council for prosecution. Then that has nothing to do with this matter, we will not ask you any farther questions.

Darbyshire. Then what do I come here for?

Council for prosecution. Can you prove any thing?

Darbyshire. Yes, I was there from twelve till nine at night, I saw the whole behaviour of Mr. Gillam.

Q. What are you?

Darbyshire. I am a bookseller, and live in the parish of St. George's, Hanover-square; I came into St. George's-fields, and went into the King's-bench prison; I came a little before twelve o'clock, I did not go the usual way that I was going; I went to the prison for safety indeed, I went into the coffee-room, and met with two friends, and we drank part of a bottle of perry; I staid there about half an hour, then my friends and I said we had no business there, and it would be our best way to leave that place, and go to our respective homes; I saw a great many of the military there, there was a disturbance from the military riding among the people; I could see into the fields, because there were glass-windows there.

Q. Did you observe any ill behaviour in the people?

Darbyshire. No, not the least, nor I dare say there was none intended.

Q. Did you then quit the prison?

Darbyshire. I did; when I came out of the prison I was going into the city, and at the end of the wall there were people crying out, there was a murder committed; this was a little before one o'clock.

Court. This being before one o'clock, it has no relation to the death of Redburn. You set the accusation against Mr. Gillam is for being instrumental in the death of Redburn.

Darbyshire. My Lord, I am going to tell you the whole of Mr. Gillam's behaviour from first to last.

Council for prosecution. Keep yourself to the behaviour of Mr. Gillam.

Darbyshire. After the murder I turned to the King's bench prison, by the desire of Mrs. Allen, to see after the murderer, this was about one o'clock; I applied to the Justices for a warrant to apprehend the murderer or murderers; the Justices would not grant any; I then applied to Justice Gillam; he said -

Court. It is to be understood that we are not to let evidence be given that is not applicable to the case in hand, this gentleman is charged with a crime relative to one Redburn; this man is telling you about his conduct about one Allen; it is the duty of the bench, where there is no council in support of the prosecution, to see that proper evidence be given, and if the council for the prosecution does not confine the witnesses to the proper matter, to take care that improper evidence is not given.

Darbyshire. Mr. Gillam told me he had orders from the ministry to fire upon the people, and that there must be some men killed, and that it was better to kill five and twenty to day than have an hundred to kill to-morrow; this was in the field opposite the marshal's house.

Q. What time was it that Mr. Gillam said this?

Darbyshire. It was between one and two o'clock; the other evidences have been admitted to speak, he said he had orders from the ministry to fire upon the people, and that there must be some men killed.

Q. Who was present at the time?

Darbyshire. This was in the presence of the soldiers, and that they had better kill five and twenty to-day than an hundred to-morrow; all the afternoon there were people taken into custody, and put into a cellar under the marshal's house.

Court. What place was this where you heard those expressions?

Darbyshire. It was near the marshal's house.

Q. Name those persons that were present.

Darbyshire. What the soldiers. - I am not so well acquainted with them, I believe it was said twice in the house, and out of the house, and with a snear, as if murder was a thing of no consequence.

Q. Whether it was without or within the marshal's house?

Darbyshire. It was without, as near as I can remember.

Q. Do you recollect any body that you knew that was near or by at this time?

Darbyshire. There were some people, but I don't recollect who they were.

Q. Was Mr. Ponton there?

Darbyshire. Yes, he was - I do not know whether he was in hearing, but I saw him there.

Q. Cannot you recollect whether he was near at the time?

Darbyshire. No, I cannot, there were people there, but I do not recollect particular persons what their names were.

Court. Do you say Mr. Ponton was there, but you are not sure whether he was in the hearing or not?

Darbyshire. I do not know whether he was upon the spot at that time, I saw that gentleman several times in the course of the afternoon.

Cross examination.

Council. You mention twice such a conversation past.

Darbyshire. I believe it was spoke twice, but I am not certain; I am not certain only as to once.

Q. Where was it spoke the first time?

Darbyshire. To the best of my knowledge that was opposite the marshal's house.

Q. Fix the time?

Darbyshire. I have told you I believe it was about two o'clock.

Q. Name if you can any persons that were present that you know that at that time were within hearing?

Darbyshire. I cannot.

Q. How long after that was it, if there was a second time when it was said?

Darbyshire. I do not recollect exactly the time; there was a good deal of discourse in the marshal's house, they talked of it as a thing of trifling concern, a matter of no concern.

Q. Repeat the words again.

Darbyshire. Mr. Gillam upon my application to him for a warrant for the murderers, said he would grant no warrant, he said it was no murder, for that he had orders from the ministry to fire upon the people, and there must be some killed, and it was better to kill five and twenty to day than a hundred to-morrow.

Q. Then this second time, how long do you fix hat to be after the first conversation?

Darbyshire. I cannot tell.

Q. Was it three hours or half an hour?

Darbyshire. I do not know.

Q. Was it at night or any part of the day?

Darbyshire. It was not at night, I was in bed at night; I do not say the very particular words were said, but there were several things said.

Q. I ask you as to the time?

Darbyshire. You asked me before, I have answered it, I cannot tell.

Council. You cannot tell whether it was immediately after the first, or five or six hours after, was it in the marshal's house?

Darbyshire. I am not certain, I believe it was, but I am not certain; you will not draw any thing from me.

Council. You do not fix any particular time or place for the second conversation, you do not recollect any particular person that was present in that second supposed conversation?

Darbyshire. I told you that before, you ask me the same question three or four times over.

Q. What did you say there was a second conversation for?

Darbyshire. Because I was asked if there was any thing of that sort.

Q. When you heard it a second time what did you hear?

Darbyshire. It was not the same words, but to that purport; it was with great difficulty that any warrants could be obtained; if you will let me go on I shall say a good deal more than I have.

Q. In this last case do you mean to give the words the Justice used?

Darbyshire. The words the Justice used.

Q. Then mention them again, because I did not understand whether they are your sense of the conversation, or the words he used?

Darbyshire. Gillam said it was no murder; I did not hear the other Justices say any thing in particular; I imagined that this gentleman was foreman on that most glorious day.

Council. In this second conversation you understood Mr. Gillam to say, they were determined to grant no warrants to apprehend these persons that committed what you call murder?

Darbyshire. Mr. Gillam said if their names could be procured he would grant warrants.

Council. Then what you mean by this is to say, Mr. Gillam said he would not grant any warrants till he knew their names?

Darbyshire. This was in the marshal's house, but the words were used on the first application for warrants.

Council. Then he said the reason why he did not grant warrants was, because you did not name the names of particular persons; how long have you been acquainted with Mr. Gillam?

Darbyshire. The 10th of May about 12 o'clock was the first of my acquaintance with him, I did not know there was a Mr. Gillam living before, and I wish I had not seen him then, because I saw such acts of cruelty I never saw before.

Council. Mr. Gillam was in company with you in some room in that second conversation?

Darbyshire. Many hours.

Q. How came you together as acquaintance if you had never known him before?

Darbyshire. Because I was applying for warrants, endeavouring to bring the murderers to light; I was there and drank there, I believe out of the same glass, but I am not sure of that, I think that is not material.

Q. Who was in the room?

Darbyshire. Mr. Flowers was in the room, there was the cow-man in the room, whose name I do not recollect; I saw Mr. Ponton there several times.

Q. Was he there at the time you was discoursing upon these warrants?

Darbyshire. The application was particularly made by Mr. Flowers and another gentleman, Mr. Horne.

Q. Who is he?

Darbyshire. I believe he is a clergyman.

Q. Where does he live?

Darbyshire. I believe at Brentford.

Q. from a juryman. Did not you say you had something else to say?

Darbyshire. I have; the Justice's clerk (I imagined him to be one,) he acted as such upon taking the deposition of one of the people for the murder of Allen, beginning with what happened from 12 o'clock; when he came to that part wherein he said he heard Mr. Gillam order the military to fire upon the people, Mr. Gillam said, hold, hold, do not take his deposition from that time before that, but what happened in the cow-house; I imagined Mr. Gillam was conscious of his guilt.

Q. I desire you would explain one particular transaction -

Court. You see, brother Glyn, this is not evidence.

Serjeant Glyn. No, it is not; only the jury desired to hear what he had to say.

A juryman. We thought he might know something more of the matter.

Q. Were any other Justices present except Mr. Gillam?

Darbyshire. At the time he said it was no murder, no, not as I know of.

Q. I understood you that the Justices said they thought such a transaction no murder.

Darbyshire. That was only Mr. Gillam and no other Justice at that time, as I know of.

Court. Whether the words you mention were spoke without the marshal's house or within?

Darbyshire. I have told you my Lord it was without the marshal's house, in the hearing of the soldiers.

Court. And that it was about two o'clock?

Darbyshire. Yes, I believe it was, I cannot judge to a quarter or half an hour, I believe it was after we went into the marshal's house, I think it was.

Q. to George Milford < no role > Flowers. Do you remember seeing Mr. Darbyshire there?

Flowers. Yes, I made repeated applications for a warrant to Mr. Gillam in the marshal's house; about three o'clock I saw Mr. Darbyshire several times, he said a great many things to me; the Justice ordered me into custody for helping the woman, he ordered depositions to be taken; he said they were all alike, and would not have them, he would have them otherwise; I did not get a warrant, Mr. Pardon was taking depositions, he said he could not help it, it was as they gave them.

Q. Was any thing said after the firing at that time?

Flowers. He said it was owing to their throwing at his head; Justice Capel was there, he said he had an order from the ministry to kill twenty-five of the people.

Q. Did Mr. Gillam say any thing to that effect?

Flowers. Mr. Gillam did not, Col. West was there, he made some slight apologies, and said, it was owing to the gun going off; he said he could have drove them all away without breaking their shins, there was no reason to hurt none of them; Mr. Gillam in the evening was very urgent to have them fire again.

William Penrith < no role > . I am turnkey at the King's-bench prison, I was minding the prisoners on the inside.

Q. Do you know any thing that happened without?

Penrith. No, I saw a number of people on the outside, my charge was very heavy, I was busy in looking after the prisoners.

Q. Was any particular attention required that day?

Penrith. There was such great numbers of people coming in and out that required my attention; I took in a many that day for misbehaviour, they were brought and delivered into my custody.

Q. Was there any stones throwed in?

Penrith. There were none that day as I know of, there were some throwed in the day before

Q. Was there none throwed in the marshal's house?

Penrith. I could not see that if there was, the door of the prison was broke the day before.

Q. Was you not afraid of their breaking the prison the second day?

Penrith. No, I was not, because I had a sufficient guard with me on the inside, I had half a dozen people.

Q. Were they soldiers?

Penrith. No, they were not; I mean a sufficient guard for my own safety, that people did not rush in too fast.

Q. Do you not know of the mischief done the day before, there was a guard sent for, was it not sent for for the security of the prison?

Penrith. I did not send for them.

Q. Did not you know the marshal did?

Penrith. I believe he did.

Q. Do not you know it was a guard to protect the prison?

Penrith. It was on the outside, you are asking me what was done without side, I did not see that.

Q. Did not you make affidavit of the riot and disturbance the day before?

Penrith. I did the day before.

Q. Whether you did not think it necessary, in your judgment, to have such a guard?

Penrith. The day before it was.

Q. Were not more people assembled that day than the day before?

Penrith. I think there were, but as to their transactions I can say nothing to that.

Court. Suppose there had not been this guard without the prison to protect it, do you think your half dozen within could have been able to have kept out this multitude?

Penrith. We kept them out the day before; when they had broke the outside door we put the bar up; I cannot say if people had pushed in that we could have kept them out, if they had all come and pushed in together.

Q. Did not you yourself tell the marshal the day before, that you thought you could not hold out any longer?

Penrith. I sent word to the marshal, and to the Justices, that it was impossible for us to hold out any longer; we had barricaded the door.

Q. Had you any doubt whether it was necessary to have a guard the next day?

Penrith. I had no doubt.

Q. from a juryman. Did you think the prison safe when the bar was put up?

Penrith. I got my arms ready, and thought they should not come in till they had broke the second door.

Council for prosecution. Was there any force used the second day?

Penrith. No, there was not, a number of people forced in, and we kept half a dozen men to push them out again.

Council for prosecution. Do you mean the people came in by force and outrage?

Penrith. They came in against our inclinations.

Q. I should be glad to know what number of prisoners there are?

Penrith. Upwards of 300 within side.

Q. What amount may the charge be upon the marshal at that time?

Penrith. I believe about two hundred thousand pounds.

John Wills < no role > . I am a glazier, and a constable of St. Olave's parish; I was in St. George's-fields on the 10th of May, I went there about twelve o'clock, there was abundance of people there besides me, the Justices were there; I saw Mr. Ponton, Mr. Gillam, Mr. Russel, and several others, whose names I do not know. At the time the horse-grenadiers came there was a sad disturbance, the people cried out, Wilkes and liberty, and throwed stones; the guards were ordered to the field-gate, Mr. Gillam was along with them; I went with them, Mr. Gillam desired the people to disperse, and for God's sake to go home; he said, if he saw any more stones throwed he would order the guards to fire; just at that time something came and hit him on the side of the hand, he fell back about two or three yards; he came forwards again, and said to the officer, if this be the case we shall be all killed, you must fire; he said, fire: upon that the soldiers fired immediately, I saw the horse-grenadiers fire; then I thought myself in danger, because they fired into the path where we were.

Q. Do you know how they fired?

Wills. I cannot say, there were three rows, I believe they fell into six, but I cannot be positive, I looked upon them to be 35 or 36 men.

Q. How many were there in a row?

Wills. I cannot tell.

Q. Did you hear the riot act read?

Wills. I did not, Mr. Gillam told the people it had been read, and the time was nearly expired; in the evening it was read again, it was read three several times afterwards, that I remember.

Court. Then according to your account of the matter, Mr. Gillam spoke in a very friendly manner to them?

Wills. Yes, he said if they throwed any more stones they must order the guards to fire.

Serjeant Glyn. I call no more witnesses, your Lordships will never find me acting a part against humanity and candour; I am not now pressing this gentleman's conviction; I opened the law, that where it was absolutely necessary for suppressing a riotous mob, there the magistrate is justified; the application thereof from facts is the whole question with respect to me, I shall say not a word more about it.

Without going into his defence, or calling a witness, he was honourably acquitted , and had a copy of his indictment granted him.