276. WILLIAM NEWLAND proceedingsdefend This name instance is in set 1364. This set is in the group(s): GarrowsClients . was indicted, for that he, on the 11th day of November last, feloniously did make, forge, and counterfeit, and cause and procure to be falsely made, forged and counterfeited, and willingly aid and assist in the false making, forging, and counterfeiting one bank note with the name William Lander < no role > thereunto subscribed, dated 6th January, 1783, signed by the said William Lander < no role > , for the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, for the sum of 100 l. to Mr. John Schutz < no role > , or bearer, on demand, with intent to defraud the Governor and Company of the Bank of England proceedingsvictim .

A second Count charges the same offence as the first, only saying, a certain note in the form of a bank note, with intent to defraud the Governor and Company of the Bank of England.

A third and fourth Counts charge it to be with intent to defraud Thomas Wagstaff proceedingsvictim .

A fifth and sixth Counts charge it to be with intent to defraud Thomas Hayward proceedingsvictim .

A seventh Count charges that he having such bank note of one hundred pounds in his custody, feloniously did dispose and put away the same, knowing the same to be forged and counterfeited, with intention to defraud the Bank.

An eighth Count charges that he having a note, purporting to be a bank note of one hundred pounds, in his custody feloniously did dispose and put away the same, knowing the same to be forged and counterfeited, with intent to defraud the Bank.

A ninth and tenth Counts charging it to be with intent to defraud Thomas Wagstaff < no role > .

An eleventh and twelfth Counts charging it to be with intent to defraud Thomas Hayward < no role > .

A thirteenth Count for feloniously forging a promissory note for the payment of money, laid to be the same as in the first count, with intention to defraud Thomas Wagstaff < no role > .

A fourteenth Count for uttering the same with the like intention.

A fifteenth Count for forging the same promissory note, with intent to defraud the said Thomas Hayward < no role > .

A sixteenth Count for uttering the same with the like intention.

A seventeenth Count for forging the same promissory not with intention to defraud the Governor and Company of the Bank of England.

An eighteenth Count uttering the same with the like intention.

Mr. Fielding, one of the Council for the prosecution, opened the indictments as follows:

Gentlemen of the Jury, this is an indictment against the prisoner at the bar for a forgery on the bank of England, it has been necessary in order to meet this crime to vary the descriptions of the offence, and it has taken up no less than eighteen different counts in this indictment; is it charged to defraud the bank, and the different persons therein mentioned, and the prisoner is likewise charged with the crime of publishing it, knowing it to be forged; you will hear the evidence, and then you will prisoners upon his guilt or innocence.

Mr. Bearcroft, of Council for the prosecution thus opened the case:

May it please your Lordship, and you Gentlemen of the Jury: I have the honor to attend you as Council for this prosecution, which is carried on by the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, as it is their manifest duty to do. Gentlemen of the Jury, the charge in plain English, stripped from form is, that the prisoner at the bar, William Newland < no role > This name instance is in set 1364. This set is in the group(s): GarrowsClients . , has been guilty of forging a bank note described in the indictment, which will be produced; it is likewise charged that he uttered this knowing it to be forged: if these facts are brought home by proof to your satisfaction against the defendant, you will convict him of a capital offence. I doubt not but you are well apprised of the necessity of a law of this nature, and that you are disposed to put it in force if the facts are proved to your satisfaction; I shall therefore state to you without much observation, for I am afraid the grounds of bringing the guilt at least of uttering this note by the prisoner at the bar, will be but too clear. Gentleman, the prisoner has of late appeared in the character of a farmer at Chinkford in Essex; you will find that in November last he applied to Mr. Wagstaff, a weaver by business, and with whom the prisoner had a sight acqaintance, and upon the strength of that, he sufficient for the purpose, he desired that he would contrive to get him changed two bank notes of one hundred pounds each, one of which is the note in question, the subject of the indictment, and that which will be produced; Wagstaff undertook to do it, and for that purpose he went to Mr. Hayward, who is likewise described to me to be of the same business of a weaver, he told him he wished to change for a friend of his these two bank notes of one hundred pounds each, and Mr. Hayward was prevailed upon to change them; Wagstaff delivered them to Hayward, and afterwards went to the prisoner and delivered to him in part one hundred and twenty pounds in cash. Gentlemen it is clear that they should identify the bank note that is produced to you, and the witnesses Hayward and Wagstaff will speak to it by particular marks which they observed on the face of it; by such obliterations which were remarkable, but which I shall not attempt to point out to you, because they come in the fittest way from the witnesses themselves; they will tell you what struck their observation when it was first produced to them, and with what certainty they can prove it be to the same note: I understand that they will prove that the note was first delivered from the Prisoner to Wagstaff, and afterwards from Wagstaff to Hayward, and by him to another person who will be produced to you, and he found it was a forged bank note: I shall perfectly satisfy you of that by the usual evidence, so as to leave no doubt on your minds; that person returned the note to him, and as soon as he found it was forged, he called upon Wagstaff, as was perfectly natural in his situation, and upon consideration together, they determined to go to Newland to make enquiries on this business; they settled to go on Sunday; they went to his place of residence in the country, and they found him at home; immediately they entered into conversation with him, and told him the notes, or rather I will confine myself to the note, which is the regular and proper way, was a forged note; the expressions he made use of, and I mean to state correctly the expressions he made use of, in the several conversations he had, and to desire you to attend to that and to his behaviour, when he was first apprised that this was a forged note; you will attend to these circumstances in order to settle in your minds whether his behaviour and conduct was that of an innocent man, or whether he did not manifestly shew a consciousness of guilt; for it is in that way that you are to satisfy yourselves of the guilt of the prisoner at the bar. On his being told they were forged, his expression immediately was, I am surprised at that, for I had them from a man of property; this was in conversation between Wagstaff and the prisoner, he told him he had brought Mr. Hayward down with him, and he was waiting at some little distance, and he desired him to go to Mr. Hayward; they went to Hayward, as soon as he appeared, Mr. Hayward addressed him in this manner: he said, Newland, you had no right to expect me without a number of armed men to take you into custody; I might have been dragged out of my bed to gaol: Where did you get these notes? the prisoner's answer was, as it had been to Wagstaff before, I had them from a man of property: Hayward immediately asked him, from whom: now what would have been the answer of an innocent man; if he had known of whom he had them, would not he have directly told the person's name for his own sake, and for the sake of public justice: that ought to have been his conduct, and for his own sake it would have been natural; for if an innocent man, which certainly may happen by accident, becomes possessed of a forged bank note, and he is told it is a forged bank note, his own personal safety, and common prudence dictate, that if he knows of whom he received it, he should instantly disclose it: therefore as the prisoner, when first asked, acknowledged that he knew the man of whom he had it, it remains for him to tell you, if he can, why he did not immediately disclose that person's name; he was pressed to tell, but he refused, and he was desired to go to town with Wagstaff and Hayward in order to find this man in particular, from whom he received these forged bank notes; his answer was, I cannot find him if we go now, and I promise I will come to you at ten o'clock tomorrow to your house, and still expressed himself saying, I cannot suppose these are bad notes; Hayward had a strong suspicion of the prisoner, and he again made use of expressions importing that suspicion, even so strong as to say, Newland, I will certainly hang you; the answer the prisoner made, is little like the answer of an innocent man; his answer was, all you want is your money, you shall have your money, that is what you want; he promised to call on Hayward again, but before they parted they had other conversation, and it will appear, I am told, by the further conversation, that there was a great deal of reservation, and much equivocation, utterly inconsistent with the behaviour of a man intirely innocent, and who by misfortune (for it is a very great one) had got hold of a forged bank note; there was further conversation between them before they parted that day; and Hayward charged him with the actual forgery; his answer was somewhat singular; no, I could not forge them, as I can neither read nor write; Hayward told him the law is the same for uttering them: upon this they quitted him, he promising and they believing that they should have the money produced. On the 8th of December Wagstaff met the prisoner in Bishopsgate-street, he asked him if he had been at Hayward's, no he said, he had not been there, upon which Wagstaff desired him to go. They went to a publick-house, and he said he had not been to Hayward, because the gentleman he had them from was gone to Stratford, and would not be at home before the evening; he said was then under a necessity of going home, but promised to meet the next day: Wagstaff and Hayward were both together at this publick-house, and they both pressed him extremely to name the person from whom he had the notes, but he declined that, and said he was perfectly sure that the gentleman from whom he had them did not know they were forged, and he begged in the most earnest manner that they would not disclose this matter, but keep it secret. Now you will consider gentlemen, as I go along, whether this was the conduct of an innocent man: the prisoner did not come as he promised; he promised another day to come, and he did not: therefore Wagstaff and Hayward both together went again to his house, he excused himself with some frivolous excuse for not having kept his promise of coming, and then promised again to come the next day, and again intreated them not to mention it, for that he was just got into an extraordinary farm, and begged for God's sake that it might not be buzzed abroad. On the Friday this prisoner met them both again, and then Mr. Hayward insisted upon it that he should tell him where and from whom he had the notes; then his conduct appeared more suspicious, (but however of that you will judge) for being pressed to the wall by Hayward, he said he would not tell in the presence of any witness but if Hayward would retire alone with him, he would disclose to him the name of the person from whom he had them, then the prisoner and Hayward went into a room by themselves, and he extorted from Hayward a solemn promise not to disclose it, and then he asserted that he had this forged bank note, together with the other from Mr. Henry Davis < no role > , a potatoe merchant, as he is described, in Spitalfields, and he undertook to Hayward that he would either bring him or the money by times the next morning; for he told him that Davis, from whom he had received the note, was gone to seek after the money; and he again begged of him to keep it secret, and if Davis of the money was not brought him the next morning, he should be welcome to disclose it. Gentlemen, In short not to take up more of your time, after many enquiries about Davis, and talking with Davis, (for what Davis said will not be evidence against the prisoner at the bar) it was found that the prisoner and this Davis were gone off: a proper enquiry was made to get at them if possible, and you will find, that after a great deal of diligent search, under many suspicious circumstances which I will not state, at a great distance from London, the prisoner and Davis were found by the sea coast going by different names from their own; if you attend to these circumstances, you will see from the beginning the prisoner at the bar insisting that he had the note from a man of property, and though pressed, declining to declare the man's name, in a way that an innocent man, I should submit to you, could not possibly do, but you will form your own judgement; at last, however, he consents to tell Hayward alone (for he would not talk to Wagstaff) that he had it from Davis, and he undertakes to produce Davis < no role > the next morning, but he never comes himself, nor does Davis come: search is made after both, and both of them are found by the sea coast of this country, for what purpose you will judge.

Gentlemen, this is the case we have to lay before you, we shall endeavour to prove before you, that the prisoner at the bar uttered this forged note; and the question for you to determine therefore is, whether it was a forged note to the knowledge of the prisoner at the time of the uttering; and in order to determine that, you will consider whether this conduct, and these expressions of his can at all be made agreeable to the conduct of an innocent person, and added to that, after this promise to produce the party to the person injured, from whom he had it; his failing of that promise and attempting to elude any search, and coupled with that promise, and also to his being at a distant place by a feigned name; it seems therefore to me, that a clearer case cannot come before you to satisfy you of the guilt of this prisoner at the bar, in uttering this note knowing it to be forged. Gentlemen, it is a question as to his knowledge, it is a question of conscience, it is a question concerning what passes in a man's mind, and it cannot be proved by any thing but circumstances; and I conceive the circumstances we shall lay before you are incompatible with the conduct of an innocent man. Gentlemen, this is our case, and if you are satisfied by the testimony of the witnesses, of the guilt of the prisoner at the bar, your duty to the publick requires that you should find him guilty; if you are not satisfied, it is no less your duty to the individual to acquit him.

Mr. Garrow Council for the Prisoner. My Lord, on the part of the prisoner I am instructed that all the witnesses, except those that belong to the Bank of England, to whom your Lordship cannot easily believe my instructions were to extend, may be examined apart.

THOMAS WAGSTAFF < no role > sworn.

Examined by Mr. Sylvester.

What are you? - A weaver.

Where do you live? - In Nova Scotia Gardens, Bethnall-green.

Do you know the prisoner? - Yes.

How long have you known him? - Between four and five years.

Did he apply to you in November last? - Some time in November he applied to me.

Where? - At the Sun in Bishopsgate-street.

At what time? - In the afternoon.

What passed? - He asked me if I knew any body that had got any money, he wanted two notes changed for one hundred pounds each.

Did he give you any reason for applying to you? - The Bank was shut up, I think that was the reason; I told him I would go and ask an acquaintance of mine if he had so much money in the house; I went to my acquaintance, his name is Thomas Hayward < no role > ; he said he had but one hundred and twenty pounds in the house, I went back and told the prisoner, he told me that would do, and he would leave the notes with him till he came out of the country.

Look at that note? - This is one of them.

You are sure of it? - Yes.

Look at that? - That is the other.

These two notes he put into your hand? - Yes.

What money was paid to him? - One hundred and twenty pounds in cash and small notes.

Did any thing else pass at that time? - Nothing particular, only we drank together.

What happened afterwards? - In about a fortnight, or something more, I believe it was, Mr. Hayward came to me and told me the notes were forged, and we agreed to go down to Mr. Newland; he lived at Chinkford-hall, in Essex; I called him out of his parlour, and told him there was a sad piece of work had happened, for those notes were forged that I had of him.

What did Mr. Newland say? - He said he was surprized at that, he had them from a man of property.

Did he say who that man of property was? - No he did not.

What then passed? - Then we came to the chaise to Mr. Hayward; I told him he was in the chaise; Mr. Hayward got out of the chaise as soon as he saw him, and told him he might have expected that he should have brought some persons down to have taken him into custody; he said he knew nothing of their being forged; I then told him the man must have his money back again; he said, yes, certainly he must, and he would come the next day and go to the man whom he had them of, and get the money returned back for them, he did come the next morning at ten o'clock and said he could not find the man, he was gone out of town somewhere.

Did you ask who the gentleman was? - Mr. Hayward did, but he omitted telling him, he said he would come the next day; but did not, and the next day, or the next day but one we went down to Chinkford again; when we came to Chinkford, we were very angry with him, both Mr. Hayward and me, for not coming according to his promise; he said he was vexed that he did not come, but he had been busy, he had been to some market at Waltham; on Friday he came to town, and we met at a publick house in Camomile-street; he had then told Mr. Hayward who it was he had them of, but he would not let me hear him.

How came you not to hear him? - He desired me to go out of the room while he told Mr. Hayward, for he said he would tell him but he would not tell any body else.

Did he say any thing else? - No, I had no discourse with him that day.

Had you any discourse with him any time afterwards? - No, I asked Mr. Hayward whether he said any thing satisfactory.

Mr. Garrow. You must not tell us what Mr. Hayward said.

Mr. Sylvester. Had you any discourse with the prisoner after? - I do not recollect I saw him till I saw him at Bow-street.

Could you find him at all after that? - No.

Mr. Garrow. You never went to the place where you was likely to find him? - No.

This man was but a slight acquaintance of yours? - I have known him four or five years.

You knew Davis, the potatoe merchant, in Spital-fields-market.

I knew him about the same time I knew Mr. Newland, but I have not seen him above ten months.

The prisoner applied to you at a publick house, and asked you if you knew any body who could give change for two one hundred pounds bank notes? - Yes.

Then he deposited with you as a pledge, two notes of one hundred pounds each, receiving from you one hundred and twenty pounds? - Yes.

It was a fortnight before you had occasions apply to the prisoner again? - Yes.

The prisoner then for all that you know on that subject, was, during that fortnight, residing at Chinkford, in the usual way of his trade as a farmer? - For ought I know he was.

He had met with no obstruction from you or the governors of the Bank? - Not that I know of.

Did he tell you it was for a friend of his? - No.

But on your telling him they were forged and there had been sad work, he said directly, I shall apply to the gentleman from whom I had them, and I will endeavour to get the money returned? - Yes.

Your object and the object of Mr. Hayward was, in truth to have got the money for these bad notes? - He wanted his money again.

And if the prisoner at the bar had had the discretion to deliver the money, you would have given him the notes? - I did not hold the notes.

The prisoner did not avail himself of this opportunity to escape, but put you off from day to day, with always telling you he would get the money? - Yes.

You say he did in fact come to town and meet you more days than one? - Two days.

And he returned of course to his own house for any thing you know? - Yes.

Mr. Sylvester. When he offered you these notes, it was for you to give him cash for them, was not it? - Yes, it was.

Did he say the reason why he wanted cash? - He said he was going into the country to buy some goods.

Mr. Garrow. How long was it after the time that you found these notes were forged, that he was apprehended? - It was some time more than three weeks, but he was in the country.

What distance from town? - At Yarmouth I heard.

That you know nothing about to your own knowledge?

Court. But from the time that you first gave intimation that these notes were forged, what space of time intervened? - From the time I had the last interview with him at the Coach-maker's Arms, I did not see him afterwards; he did not go out of town directly after, I know.

He might have gone any where? - Yes.

Jury. How do you know these to be the two notes which the prisoner gave you? - There is a particular mark, there is a word blotted in the word Schutz, in both of them, and one more than the other; when they were opened by Mr. Hayward he said, how they have blotted them.

Jury. Is it your custom to write the name of the person from whom you received the bank notes upon it? - I am not much accustomed to bank notes.

Then there is no other mark whatever that you know them by, save that of the blot? - No.

Mr. Garrow. Are you a master weaver? - What goods I make is my own.

You are not extremely conversant in bank notes? - No, Sir.

Therefore, whether they are frequently blotted or not you cannot tell? - No, I thought it was no harm to them.

THOMAS HAYWARD < no role > sworn.

Examined by Mr. Fielding.

Where do you live? - In Primrose-street, I am a weaver .

In the month of November last, did Wagstaff make any application to you? - Yes, on the 11th of last November, Thomas Wagstaff < no role > called on me, and he asked me if I could give change for two single hundred pounds bank notes; I told him I had no more than one hundred and twenty pounds in the house; I asked him who it was for, he said it was for farmer Newland.

What passed between you after that? - Wagstaff went away, I did not see the notes the first time, he returned again in a very short time with the notes, and said that would do, that Mr. Newland was going into the country, and I might have the use of the other eighty pounds for about two months.

What passed then between you? - Nothing more, than that I advanced him the money, and I had the notes, and I observed a blot.

Should you know these notes again? - Yes, Sir, I believe from a thousand. (The notes shewn him.) These are the notes, I am very positive, on the 13th of November, which was the Thursday, I paid one of these notes away to John Ellis < no role > , in Holywell Lane, No. 75.

When was it, and to whom that you paid the other note, No. 76? - No. 76, the other note, I paid sometime in November, but cannot tell the day, I called upon Mr. Buxton, a haberdasher, and asked him to change me that note.

Where does he live? - In Bishopsgate-street, he said, he had but about thirty pounds, he gave me that, he was busy in the shop, he took the note and put it by seemingly careless, I called again the next day, as I call in generally most days in the week, says he, you may take back your note, for I do not know when I shall have enough give you change for it, and you may give me the thirty pounds in a day or two.

Had you indorsed it at that time? - No, Sir, there was no mark at all.

When did you indorse it first? - At Bow-street.

What negotiation did you put the note in? - None at all, I kept it from that time, the other note I passed away to Mr. Ellis.

When was it that any notice of a suspicion came to you, that these notes were forged notes? - The latter end of November, I cannot be positive, as soon as Mr. Ellis told me it was a bad note, I applied to Mr. Wagstaff.

When was that, as near as you can recollect? - The Saturday, but I cannot tell the day of the month, I found him at home, and said to him, Wagstaff, these two notes that you have brought are forged, and we concluded to go to him the Sunday; this was the Saturday evening, we thought it more likely to find him the Sunday; the Sunday morning we took a chaise and went down to Chinkford Hall, in Essex, there I sat in the chaise while Wagstaff went into Newland's house, I cannot positively say the day of the month, but it was of a Sunday, Wagstaff and Newland came out of the house together, I got out of the chaise and met them both; the first word that I said to Newland, was this, says I, Newland, you had no right to expect me by myself, without five or six armeds men to take you into custody, I added, I might have been taken and dragged out of my bed, and dragged to a gaol; then I told him the notes were forged, he said, if they were forged, he could not forge them, for he could neither read nor write, I told him he was as liable to be hanged for putting them off, as the man that made them, I asked him who he had them from, he said, he had them from a man of property, I asked him, who that man of property was, he did not chuse to tell me.

Court. He did not tell you? - He did not.

Mr. Fielding. How do you mean that he did not chuse to tell you? - I asked him several times and he did not tell me.

He was silent upon it? - Yes, I asked him to go with me to town, then I told him it was a matter of a very serious concern, and that certainly his life was in danger, if he did not produce the man in a proper manner; he begged I would not mention it any where thereabout, he would not have it mentioned for five hundred pounds; that he had just got into a farm of two hundred a year, and it might be the ruin of him; I still pressed him to let me know from whom he had them, he told me the money was all I wanted, and I might depend upon having it; he asked me what was to be done in case the money could not immediately be had, I told him, I would hang all that was concerned, he said, he hoped, I would not talk about hanging any body, and appointed to meet me at my own house the next day at ten o'clock; I then left him, and he came according to his promise, I told Wagstaff to watch in the street, and he came at eleven to the Coach-maker's Arms; as soon as we had got into the back parlour, I asked him if he had brought the money, he said, no, he had not, I asked him who the man was again, this man that he had got them of, and he then refused to tell me, he said, the gentleman was gone to Stratford, and would not be at home before the evening, and that he wanted to go home, but would not me the next morning, and would bring me the money; I let him go away; he did not come the next day, on the Thursday, Wagstaff and I took a chaise, and went down to Chinkford Hall again.

Did you find him there? - Yes.

Jury. Can you speak to the day of the month? - I have not got the day of the month down.

Mr. Fielding. Then you went to Chinkford Hall? - Yes, I told him, I thought he was run away, he pretended he had been to some market just by, and had not had an opportunity of seeing the gentleman whom he had the bills from.

Did he make use of the word gentleman? - Yes, Sir, he always treated him as a man of property.

Jury. Did he say the gentlemen or gentleman? - He did not call it more than one, I did not stay but a very little while, but I told him, that if the matter was not settled, that he must expect to be taken into custody, this was on the Thursday, he appointed to meet me the next day at the Coach-maker's Arms, Camomile-street; accordingly he came at the hour he appointed, but I cannot tell the hour, I believe he was there rather before me, Wagstaff came much about the same time, he rather refused then to tell me or give me any satisfaction, then I told him, I would not part from him till he did tell me who he had them from, he said, he would not tell me before any witness, meaning before Wagstaff, and we went up stairs into the club-room, Newland and I, and nobody else present, and there he made me promise in a very solemn manner, that I would not mention the man's name, and he would tell me, I told him that if he did not bring me the money that night or the next day, he could not expect me to keep my word, but that he must expect that I would divulge it, he then told me that he had them from Henry Davis < no role > , a potatoe merchant, in Spitalfields-market, he seemed not desirous that I should call on Henry Davis < no role > , because he told me I should have the money, I might depend upon it, as much as a man could say, he was to meet me the next morning or that night; I believe very little passed but assurances, that I should have the money.

Did you join company with Wagstaff again? - No, I believe we went out.

When was it that you made an appointment to meet again? - The next day he was to call at my house, I always appointed my house, but he rather wished to go to other places, I went to Davis, the next day, the prisoner not coming on the afternoon of the Saturday, I enquired for Davis, and I found him at home, he was standing at the door, I said is your name Henry Davis < no role > , he said, yes.

Mr. Fielding. We must not have any conversation between you and Mr. Davis; where did you see the prisoner after the Friday? - On the Monday morning following, he called at my house pretty early, then he brought me ten pounds, in delivering me the ten pounds, he said, as I understood him then, it was all he had got by him, but when he was at Bow-street, he said to Sir Sampson Wright, there is Mr. Hayward, he cannot deny that I told him at the time, there was ten pounds, and that was all the money I got by them.

What did you understand this to be when he delivered it to you on the Monday morning? - I did not pay any credit to what he said, I am hard of hearing of one ear, and I might misunderstand him, but when we were in Bow-street, he insisted upon it, that he said, and he dared me to contradict him, that it was all he got by them.

What passed between you when he brought you the ten pounds? - I told him ten pounds was nothing, says I do not trifle with me any longer, but set your time and keep it, for I will be shuffled with no longer; he appointed that day three weeks, it was a great deal of money, but I did expect to get it as I could; through I may be blamed, before that day three weeks he was gone away, I could not find him at all, I never saw him after that Monday till he was apprehended, I then went to one of the gentlemen belonging to Sir Sampson Wright's, and asked him whose hands it was proper I should deliver the notes to.

At what time was it that you applied to the Gentlemen of the Bank, and informed them of this matter? - I cannot tell how long, they were gone a long while, but when I heard that he was apprehended, I was determined to deliver the notes up, I delivered them to Mr. Acton's hands at Sir Sampson Wright's office.

What time was that? - I do not know.

What day did you first go to Chinkford? - The day that Wagstaff first applied to me was on the 11th of November, the Tuesday.

How long was it before you first went in search of him at Chinkford? - I cannot be exact.

How long was it between the time you received the notes from him, and the time he appointed to meet you? - It might be a fortnight, it was either the 30th of November, or the 7th of December.

How long was it after you delivered this note to Mr. Ellis, and the other to Mr. Buxton, before you received notice that these notes were fabricated? - About a fortnight.

Court. From the time that you first had a suspicion that these notes were forged to the time that the prisoner absconded, what was the portion of time that elapsed? - He absconded before the time he fixed to come to me, but I cannot tell, for he living eight miles off, I was tired.

Court. Then from the Sunday you first went with Mr. Wagstaff, to the Monday when he paid you ten pounds, that was but a week? - Yes.

Did you know any thing of Newland? - I did formerly know him, when he was a hay broker at Whitechapel, I understood he had borrowed three or four hundred pounds to stock his farm with, and I understood this was part of the money.

Mr. Garrow, Prisoner's Council. You have told the Court very candidly, and I dare say, very truly, that this being a considerable sum of money, one hundred and twenty pounds, and a great deal too much to lose, you was very anxious to get it? - I was.

In consequences of that you had four or five interviews with the prisoner? - Yes.

You had seen him in the course of a week four times, sometimes he kept his promise, sometimes, he did not, but you however had several interviews with him on the subject, and the first time you applied to him, you informed him of his situation, told him how his life would be affected, that he would be hanged, and that any body that had a hand in uttering forged notes were as guilty as the forgers? - Yes.

But his anxiety however did not seem to keep pace with your advice, for he only says, for God's sake, do not mention it hereabouts, for I am just got into a farm of very considerable extent? - Yes.

That was the sort of anxiety that seemed to press on the mind of the prisoner, neglecting all that you told him: he appeared to you to be a man of some property, renting a considerable farm? - He did.

It would not have been very difficult, one would have thought, for such a man to have raised such a sum as one hundred and twenty pounds? - I believe he could have raised it.

Aye! if he had been anxious so to do, I dare say you would have been very glad to have got good security for your money, you would not have insisted on hard cash? - I wanted hard cash, I gave him my hard cash.

Now the last time, after he paid you ten pounds, you gave him perfect latitude for the payment of remainder, that was your conversation, and he took three weeks; now did you hear that the prisoner living in Essex, had been in a situation which I must mention, had not you heard that he was a smugler? - I cannot say I did.

That note is No. 76, that you lodged at Mr. Buxton's? - Yes.

He gave you thirty pounds, and the next day he returned you a note for one hundred pounds? - Yes.

Can you, or can you not, in a case of life, venture to swear that that note, whilst it was in the hand of Mr. Buxton, might not have been changed? - I took such particular notice of the notes, I remarked them to be blotted in such a manner, that I could have known them again from a thousand.

If you had seen a bank note, No. 876, payable to Mr. John Schutz < no role > , for one hundred pounds, dated the same day, could you have distinguished it from this? - I do in my conscience believe that to be the note, and as such I do declare it.

So I understand you, you are of opinion that you had the same note back again? - I am pretty sure of it.

You have told us that even when he made the last appointment with you, he was endeavouring to gain time? - I think he never meant to give the money at all.

You told him the second time you would hang all that were concerned? - Yes.

Do you happen to know Davis? - I should not know him if I was to see him now.

Did you know him by reputation? - I know nothing at all of him.

You told us that the prisoner seemed not desirous that you should call on Davis? - When he enjoined me to secrecy, he said, he would bring me the money himself, and said, he would not wish me to call on Davis, he did not wish I should call on him.

Now during the whole of this month you say you did not disclose to the Governors of the Bank of England or any other person, that you had these notes in your possession? - I did not.

You felt that your situation was an aukward one, if he had run away, and you had been found with these notes? - Yes.

And then for a whole month you did not apply to the Governors of the Bank? - There is one word I remember now, he told me it was put in such a train, that the money I should be sure of having.

My question is whether you did not keep these bills, and did not disclose to any body that you had them in your possession during that month, that is so, is not it? - I believe I did mention it to a friend or two, I did want to get my money.

Do you know any thing of the prisoner's absconding, you found him at Chinkford? - Yes.

Did you go at any other time? - I went after he was gone, and I was very well informed that he was gone to Norfolk.

Do you know that the prisoner was taken at his own house? - I have heard that he was.

You said it was your wish to meet at your own house, but the prisoner chose a public house? - We was in a private room.

Mr. Fielding. Do you know whether he had a farm or not at Chinkford, or whether it was his brother's, was he a tenant to farmer Lott? - I have heard so, his appearance looked very wretched when I went down first.

Mr. Fielding. This note had remained in your possession till you gave it in to the magistrate? - Yes.

Then this is the note you received from Wagstaff? - Yes.

Jury. When did you go down to the prisoner's house, after that Monday that he had paid you the ten pounds, and was to pay you the remainder in three weeks? - I was informed that he was at Norfolk, therefore, I did not go down, but I was there on the Thursday that he was apprehended; on the Saturday or Sunday, I went to Chinkford, a few days before he was apprehended, after the three weeks had elapsed, his wife told me he was at Norfolk or somewhere there, and as I understood he was gone upon a smuggling party.

WILLIAM BUXTON < no role > sworn.

Examined by Mr. Bearcroft.

I know Mr. Hayward, he brought me a bank note of one hundred pound to change, six weeks ago I told him I had thirty pounds, he said, he had his people to pay, I gave him the thirty pounds, he threw the note on the counter, he called upon me the next day, says I, you may take your note again, and when you have got change for it, you may bring me the thirty pounds.

Take this note in your hand, and tell me whether you believe that is the same note? - I cannot say positively to it, but I believe it is.

I do not ask you to be positive, but according to the best of your belief and recollection? - I do not know rightly, it looks like it, I fancy it is.

Did you change away the note you received from Mr. Hayward, or did you return the not you had from Mr. Hayward to him again? - I returned the same piece of paper, it was only out of the counter into the drawer, and out of the drawer into his pocket.

Locked up I suppose? - No, Sir, it was not; nobody stands behind the counter but my wife and me.

Mr. Garrow. Whether your wife had changed it for another you cannot tell? - No.

So that while it was in that drawer it might have been changed you know? - I do not know that it was.

No! nor that it was not? - No.

JOHN ACTON < no role > , Esq; sworn.

I am solicitor to the bank, I received this note from the hands of Thomas Hayward < no role > the witness, who wrote his name upon it in my presence, and I likewise: that is the same note.

JAMES WILLIAM LANDER < no role > sworn.

Mr. Garrow. Will your Lordship indulge me with a question or two to Mr. Lander.

What are you, Sir? - One of the cashiers of the Bank.

You are authorised to subscribe notes? - Yes.

Do you give security to the Bank of England for your fidelity? - Yes.

Mr. Garrow. My Lord, I take the liberty of submitting an objection to the competency of Mr. Lander, I take it for granted the gentleman is called to prove that the note produced is not his hand writing, I trust, my Lord, that the situation in which I stand, and the situation in which that unfortunate man at the bar stands, will apologize for me to your Lordship, for taking the liberty of troubling your Lordship; and if, ultimately, it shall be the sate of my objection to be overruled, yet I trust I shall be forgiven for having made it, when it is considered that the defence of the prisoner at the bar is to be conducted by my inexperience and inability, against the first abilities and most confirmed experience that this country affords. I intreat your Lordship to believe that in this, and every objection I may take, I shall endeavour so to conduct myself, as to convince the Court that it is not my purpose to sport with their time, to trouble them with frivolous objections, or to impede the course of justice: the objection which I take the liberty of submitting to your Lordship is, that Mr. Lander is interested in the event of this trial, and I beg leave to premise that this objection does not go one single tittle personally against the character of Mr. Lander; I mean to argue it in the general, without suggesting an imputation on him or any of the gentlemen of the bank; and I say this, that not one individual here should entertain an idea, that criminality is imputable to those gentlemen, whose conduct and integrity raise them above suspicion; but it is my duty to submit to the Court, that an interest, the smallest that can possibly be conceived in nature, is objection enough to the examination of a witness, this is the law in civil cases, and therefore, I submit it is an objection, which applies a fortiori in a criminal prosecution: the case of a commoner, who comes to say that a common is not commonable but to such a number, or by such a description of persons, is extremely minute: yet such a man's evidence is uniformly rejected; the evidence of a corporator, who would confine the exercise of a franchise, is liable to the same objection; and even in questions about the settlement of a pauper, it is every day's experience that the parishioners can not be examined; I have heard it from the first authority in this country, recognized in this Court by great authorities on the trial of Mrs. Rudd, that Courts of justice do not fit to weigh what degree of temptations the minds of men may resist, but to take care that they shall not be exposed to any temptations whatever. My Lords, if a gentleman is going along the street, and his servant is assaulted, and an action is brought by the servant, the master is not bound to pay the costs, so says the law; but if the master is tendered as a witness, he is asked, do you pay the costs? the master will answer as a man of honour and generosity, I think I ought not to let my servant pay them; if I were stating such a case to the common understandings of men; of such a man as this, I should state, that he was actuated by principles of the first standard in morality, principles of justice to his servant, and acting under the influence of those principles, it is impossible that he should be biassed, to the commission of perjury, yet a witness standing in in this situation, is rejected in a Court of law. In the case of Mrs. Rudd, Mrs. Perreau was called as a witness, and it was asked of her, whether she had a hope that if Mrs. Rudd should be convicted, that conviction might have some effect to procure the pardon and discharge of her husband, who was already convicted: on her answering she did hope so, the Court refused to receive her evidence; what was the supposed bias on this woman's mind, viewed in the light of a legal objection. It amounts only to a hope, which might be fallacious, that if Mrs. Rudd should be convicted, that event might tend to induce a belief, that Mr. Perreau had been improperly convicted, and that mercy might be extended to him as the result of that belief; in the case of a common forgery the objection would be certainly unanswerable, we all know that a man who has subscribed a note, and is therefore prima facie liable to pay it, cannot be examined as a witness; but it will be said that Mr. Lander is not personally liable to pay this note; but my Lords, I conceive his interest in this question may be no less considerable, for he has told your Lordships, that he gives security for his fidelity, and I am entitled to suppose his bonds are to the amount of twenty thousand pounds: if Mr. Lander, or any officer belonging to the bank should receive ten pounds, or any other sum, and issue a note without carrying the amount to the account of the Bank of England; if the Bank of England should have no value for that note, so issued by the officer, but if the officer so intrusted should subscribe his name, putting the money into his pocket, he would come here under this bias, if this is proved to be my hand writing, as it is not carried to the account of the Governors of the Bank of England, I am liable to a civil prosecution, on my security bonds for a breach of duty, and to a criminal prosecution, for a fraud on the bank. My Lords, when I stand here as council for a prisoner, and address myself to your Lordships, I am intitled in this state of the prosecution, to say, that the prisoner is as innocent as the witness tendered to be examined; then my objection is that this witness comes under the bias which I have taken the liberty to state, and I assure myself that if this objection should not meet with an insuperable answer, from those gentlemen whose answers I dread extremely, and the weight of whose abilities have almost deterred me from troubling your Lordship; I assure myself your Lordships will not receive the evidence of Mr. Lander, but will leave the fact to be proved by other and better, and less exceptionable means.

Mr. Bearcroft, Council for the Prosecution. My Lord, it is certainly very proper for a Council concerned for the prisoner to make any objection that may occur to him; and I am the last man in the world, as Council for a prosecution, that will even complain of the exertion of the ingenuity of an advocate in such situation: it is only my duty to submit to your Lordship the answer, which is, first, and it is a very strong answer, that the constant current of practice has been to admit such a witness as is now objected to, and I am only to appeal to your Lordship's experience, and that of the other learned Judges upon the bench for the truth of this assertion; that of itself my Lord is a strong answer to this objection: but however, there is another circumstance I am ready to admit, that it is the clear law of the land in civil cases, as well as in criminal, that whensoever a witness is called to prove a proposition in which he stands directly interested, to say yes, rather than no, he shall not be admitted as a witness to say yes; and I also admit that the question is not on the quantity of the interest, for if the interest amounts only to five shillings, it is as complete an objection, as if it amounted to twenty thousand pounds; the difficulty is to see how the learned gentleman applies the reasoning to the present case: Mr. Lander is a clerk of the Bank, but his signature does not bind himself, his signature professes to be for the Governor and Company of the Bank of England; if he were to offer himself here, upon an indictment for a forgery of Mr. Lander's note, beyond doubt he would not be competent a witness; but here he can never be sued civilly, because he professes to sign for the Governor and Company of the Bank of England; and whoever therefore receives that paper, must call on them and them only. The learned gentleman then raises another objection, in which he is forced to make a presumption, and a violent one it is, and contrary to the very first principles of law; he asserts that this Mr. Lander has given security to exercise his office faithfully, and then says, he, now I will presume he has not exercised it faithfully, but that this is his handwriting; that is, I will presume he is guilty of a capital forgery, in order to make him an interested witness, and to repel his evidence. My Lord, the law never presumes guilt, the law presumes innocence, and the learned gentleman cannot state his objection but in that form; by possibility, says he, it looks likely, or you are to take it for granted, that Mr. Lander has put his name to bank paper issued by the Bank, for certain purposes, and that he is guilty of the forgery: state the case, that here is a genuine bank note, that Lander puts his name falsely without authority, and add some other circumstances that do not exist, and that is the foundation of the objection. Take it for granted that he is guilty of the forgery himself, and most undoubtedly by he is guilty of the forgery; but your Lordship sees the objection stands on the illegal assumption, contrary to the first principles of law: nevertheless, it is no reflection on the learned gentleman who has taken the objection.

Court. This objection is taken by the Council for the prisoner to the testimony of the witness Mr. Lander, as an interested witness; I remember in the case of Doctor Dodd < no role > , my Lord Chesterfield, whose bond it was supposed to be, and whose name was subscribed to it, before he was examined as a witness, he executed a release which made him a competent witness; now I take it, that to repel the evidence of a witness, it must appear that they would be liable to be sued or prosecuted: you are not to presume that a man is guilty of a capital crime in order to repel his testimony, and Mr. Lander has by no means engaged himself, and I think his testimony ought to be received.

Mr. Recorder. I am of the same opinion; the answer seems to be this, that in order to allow this objection, it is necessary to presume the criminality of the witness; the interest must therefore be either apparent on the nature of the transaction, or come out from his own examination: if the witness is interested, or if he admits himself to have an interest that operates in his own mind, in either of those cases, to be sure it would be an objection.

Mr. Sylvester to Mr. Lander. Look at that note? - It is a plain forgery.

Is it? - Yes undoubtedly.

Court. Is it your hand-writing? - No, my Lord.

Is it on bank paper? - No.

GEORGE VINCENT < no role > sworn.

I am entering clerk at the Bank.

Look at that bank note? - It is a forgery, it is not my hand-writing, it is not bank paper.

(The note read.)

"1783. No. 876. I promise to pay

"Mr. John Schutz < no role > , or bearer, on demand,

"the sum of one hundred pounds, for the

"Governor and Company of the Bank of

"England. William Lander < no role > , 100. Entered

" Geo. Vincent < no role > ."

(The note shewn to the Jury.)

Court. There is no variance between the note and the record.

Mr. Fielding to Mr. Vincent. You have seen that note? - Yes.

In the first place you say it is not your hand-writing? - It is not.

Wherein does it differ? - There is a very material difference in the one hundred pounds, which extends further than ours, the paper is more flimsy than ours.

Has that note any water mark in it? - I never observed it.

Be so good as to look at it now? - It is a very faint water mark if there is one, but I cannot distinguish it.

To Mr. Lander. Tell us the difference? - I see no water mark, here is something, but it is not clear, here is the word pounds printed in it, which is not in real bank notes, here is the hundred in the black, is joined with the letter F. it is jumbled together.

Mr. Sylvester. Is it either the plate or the paper of the Bank? - Neither.

Mr. Garrow. I do not doubt but these are perfectly distinguishable to you, but to men of common observation are they so very bad, as that a man taking notes in the common way of trade, might not have have taken them? - They might take them.

The Remainder of this Trial will appear in the next Part, which will be published in a few Days.

THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS ON THE KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON; AND ALSO The Gaol Delivery for the County of Middlesex; HELD AT JUSTICE HALL in the OLD BAILEY, On Wednesday the 25th of FEBRUARY, 1784, and the following, Days;

Being the THIRD SESSION in the Mayoralty of The Right Hon. ROBERT PECKHAM < no role > , Esq; LORD MAYOR < no role > OF THE CITY OF LONDON.

TAKEN IN SHORT HAND BY E. HODGSON, And Published by Authority.

NUMBER III. PART III.

LONDON:

Printed for E. HODGSON (the Proprietor) And Sold by J. WALMSLAY, No. 35, Chancery Lane, and S. BLADON, No. 13, Pater-noster Row.

MDCCLXXXIV.

[PRICE SIX-PENCE.]

THE WHOLE PROCEEDINGS UPON THE

KING's Commission of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery for the CITY of LONDON, &c.

Continuation of the Trial of William Newland < no role > This name instance is in set 1364. This set is in the group(s): GarrowsClients . .

EDMUND PATMAN < no role > sworn.

Examined by Mr. Sylvester.

Do you know the prisoner? - Yes.

Did you at any time go to Norwich, or the sea coast? - Yes, I believe it was about six weeks ago.

Where was you? - I went from London, a young man and I, to Swolen in Norfolk, there we met Newland and Davis; it was about six weeks ago.

Was it before or after Christmas? - After; we staid there that night, it is about thirty miles from the sea coast, we went from there to Southwold, which is close joining to the sea, I believe we staid there seven or eight days.

Who staid with you? - Davis and Newland, and one Handby that went down with me, and Newland's man.

What name did Newland go by? - By the name of Brown.

What name did Davis go by? - By the name of Pitt; we continued there six or seven days, then we went to a place called Cuthie, it is about three quarters of a mile from the sea, we staid there I believe much about the same time, eight or nine days.

Where did you go from thence? - From there we came home to London.

Court. What was your business in going there? - We went there to assist him to get the goods away from the water side.

Mr. Garrow. Master Patman, there is some good moon-shine at Southwold, is not there? - I do not know what that is.

Lord bless me! I thought you had learned that in the Exchequer long since; do not you know what white brandy is? - I never sold any.

Oh! you only carried it, you was a sort of huckster then; pray Master Patman, what might your travelling name be in this expedition? - My name was Smith.

Pray Mr. Smith, alias Patman, what was your reason for exchanging your name? - That the Custom House officers should not lay hold of us.

It is very common you know, for gentlemen and nobleman to go incog. so the cutter did not come in sight, and you came away to town, is that it? - Yes.

Mr. Sylvester. Who desired you to take the name of Smith? - I do not know whether it was Newland or Pitt, or who it was.

Mr. Garrow. It was some of the gang? - We expected some smuggled goods that Woodin and Thurston went over to buy.

Mr. Sylvester. What were they to pay for the goods? - I understood it was paper.

Who was to pay for them in paper? - Woodin.

Mr. Garrow. My Lord, is it proper for us to hear the whole journey of this gang to Bruges. What did Newland say to you about these transactions or this journey? - Very little.

How came you and Newland to leave the coast? - I went down to Yarmouth, and I heard they were taken up for a forgery on the Bank, I told Newland, that I heard a man on the other side of the water was taken up for forgery, he seemed to be surprised, and said, he knew nothing about it; we came about fifteen miles the next day to the place were Davis took coach, and Newland and I came up in his little cart.

What name was there on the cart? - I do not know, I believe Newland, I am not sure whether it was upon it or not, I cannot read.

Mr. Bearcroft. Why did the party break up? tell the whole, upon your oath? - I do not know.

What was said about parting company? - Nothing particular.

How came you to leave the coast and part company? - Upon the account of the other man being taken up on the other side of the water, for a forgery on the bank, that was what I understood at Yarmouth.

Mr. Garrow. Somebody told you these men were taken up for forgery? - Yes.

And you told Newland so? - Yes.

And he afterwards came up to his own house? - He came to Rumford near to it.

You cannot read? - No.

Nor Newland neither? - I believe not, I believe he can neither read or write.

CHARLES JEALOUS < no role > sworn.

I went to Chinkford to apprehend the prisoner, it was on a Sunday morning, and very snowy; we saw a woman come from Chinkford Hall, to light a candle at that man's house, as soon as the door was open we went in immediately, I went up stairs, there were two people in bed, a man and woman, he said, his name was George Newland < no role > , says I, where is your brother Will; says he, I do not think I have seen him for this ten days; I went into another room, I saw a woman, and I asked her when she saw William, she said, not for a great while, I then saw I believe his nephew.

Mr. Garrow. Will your Lordship take the account of what all these people said to the witness.

Court. Where was he found? - I came into the wash-house, and I saw a man come out, and I asked him where he came from, he said, down that stair-case, I immediately went and clapped a pistol to his head, and said, if you stir, I will blow your brains out! says he, I shall make no resistance, he said, he supposed we wanted him; we brought him down from there, and he asked what was the matter.

Did he know you before? - Not to my knowledge.

Did any thing pass after that? - He asked what it was for, I told him it was for making bank notes, and he said he could neither read nor write.

Mr. Bearcroft. My Lord, there is a piece of evidence behind which I did not open, I have a witness to prove, that previous to the time of delivering these bank notes that have been produced; the prisoner at the bar offered to sell eight hundred pounds in bank notes for four hundred pounds.

Court. I do not think I should receive that.

Mr. Garrow. I wish Mr. Bearcroft had contrived any way that the Jury should not have heard it.

Prisoner. My Lord I never offered any bank notes under the value in my life, here I stand, my life is at stake.

Court to Prisoner. There is no evidence on that subject, these bank notes you were to have received the full consideration for, though part of them only were to be received at the time.

PRISONER's DEFENCE.

These notes my Lord I had of Henry Davis < no role > , I told them I had them of him, for he was a man of property; I am as innocent of the forgery as a child unborn, I said that Davis had lent me ten pounds of the money, and I put my hand in my pocket and gave it him; he said he was very glad of it, that is all I know of the matter.

Mr. Garrow. My Lord I am ready to call several witnesses to prove the purpose of going to Norfolk; but I take it to be proved that this man went into Norfolk on a smuggling party, and that he came back again to his own house.

NOT GUILTY .

Tried by the London Jury before Mr. Baron PERRYN < no role > .

277. The said WILLIAM NEWLAND < no role > This name instance is in set 1364. This set is in the group(s): GarrowsClients . was again indicted for forging and uttering the other bank note, laid the same as the former ; and there being no further evidence, he was of course. ACQUITTED .

Mr. Garrow moved the Court that the prisoner might be immediately discharged; but he was ordered to be detained till the Gaol Delivery.